Wood issues

2562 Views 20 Replies 7 Participants Last post by MidGAOutdoor, Jan 11, 2014

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · Jan 7, 2014

NOT SURE IF THIS IS THE RIGHT SPOT BUT HERE GOES. THIS IS A PM I SENT DAREN. ID LIKE TO GET SOME INPUT AND OPINIONS.

I am having some problems. I am making thes small simple jewelry boxes with lids and the lids are warping up. cupping upwards and not closing flat. the wood haS BEEN IN MY SHOP FOR A WHILE AND IN THIS ga WEATHER I AM HAVING PROBLEMS AIR DRYING DOWN PAST 11-12%MC. THIS WOOD IS DIMENSIONAL LUMBER THAT CAME FROM SOME SHIPPING CRATES THAT IO GET. THE WOOD IN THE SHPOP IS 11% BUT WHEN I BRING THEM INSIDE FOR MOM TO DO HER WOOD BURNING ON THEM, THIS HAPPENS. I CHECKED ONE THAT WAS THIS WAY JUST NOW AND IT AT 7%. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO MAKE THIS STOP HAPPENING? ITS FRUSTRATING TO PUT THIS MUCH EFFORT IN SOMETHING FOR THIS TO HAPPEN IN THE END. I GUESS IM GONNA HAVE TO BUILD A SURE ENOUGH KILN AND BAKE THE HELL OUT OF THE WOOD FIRST????? THIS WOOD HAD ht STAMPED ON IT BY THE WAY. I GUESS IF NEED BE I COULD BRING THE WOOD INSIDE BUT THEN WHEN I GO TO DO THE WORK, THE WOOD WILL ABSORB MOISTURE TO ITS SURROUNDING CONDITIONS AND ILL BE BE BACK TO SQUARE 1.
THANKS AND ANY HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.

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Acercanto

· #2 · Jan 7, 2014

First off, you're yelling. Please don't yell, we can hear you just fine.

As for the warping, are all surfaces finished? It might help slow the drying process and keep it from warping when you bring the pieces into the (lower MC) house.
Another option would be to make an enclosure in your shop and put your wood in there with a dehumidifier. Wouldn't have to be anything real fancy, just a stick frame with a tarp stapled to it. Or something like that.

Good luck!
Acer

Tennessee Tim

· #3 · Jan 7, 2014

I'm supposing they are unfinished when brought in for the wood burning. so that leads to other areas.....
1) for BEST ideally all around results it's best to have your shop and wood's MC around/close to the suspected end use....if primary use is exterior, shop and wood around 13-14% MC ... if primarily used interior of a house, most housing with AC/heat average 9-10% MC, so shop and would ideally be in that range also.
2) I'm suspecting though it's a lumber MC issue/handling/storage issue. When you break down your pallet material are you stickering it when stacking??? If not, you maybe actually trapping a higher MC inside of it and from exterior to interior it's moving TOO much.
3) show us a picture of the box and problem...it could be a design causing the warpage if it's not allowing movement.
4) as you see there are MANY factors that cause warpage and you have to know which factor may be causing your issues.

5) as one has already mentioned one side finished and the other not.
6) how long does it take for the warpage to show....a few hrs..1/2 day..day...week...etc.??? You may also be bringing into an excessively dry house....5-6% not uncommon in winter from heat.
7) What wood species....also do you primarily use hardwood or softwood???

I hope this may help....

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TheWoodsman

· #4 · Jan 7, 2014

Although it may be marked KD (kiln dried) and HT (heat treated), dimensional lumber isn't kiln dried to the same level as furniture grade woods. It was likely never dried below 12-13%. Under typical weather conditions, you will not be able to air dry it down to furniture grade levels. Bringing it inside of an air-conditioned and heated structure for a while will help but still not get it to the level of kiln drying . . . unless you want to keep it in your house for several months.

Tim mentioned 9-10% (he's a little south of me) but the standard the companies I worked for or with over the years that shipped hospital furniture and store fixtures nationwide are 6-8%. This is what I also shoot for. You can see on page two of this link what the AWI standards are for moisture. http://www.wicnet.org/pdfdocs/AWS_Ed01/WI_AWS_sec02NM.pdf

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 8, 2014

tim,
none of this is finished wood. its pine. no io don't sticker and haven't had this issue on bigger pieces just these lids. all the lids are is a glue up with hinges on the back to make the lid. ill get a picture of the box

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 8, 2014

here are some pics of the boxes and the stuff she burns

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4

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 8, 2014

more pics. the last 2 is the worst one. I think this has also happened to one that's done. I think I may put a draw catch on the real minor ones and maybe that will work

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MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jan 8, 2014

one thing could be that I haven't nbeen paying that much attention to turning the growth rings properly

SubmarineWoodchucker

· #9 · Jan 8, 2014

I had the same issues with some of the wood I got from some dunnage I bought (European oak and beech). The original moisture content was 12% and I built a kiln using Daren Nelson's plans, and it came out to 6-7% MC! I had built some small boxes before kiln drying the wood and they warped pretty bad in about a week. The HT stamp just means it was heat treated for bugs, but only brought to that temp for a small time to kill them and not enough to KD. The next letter after the stamp is where it came from (mine was Europe).

My advice is to build a kiln (with Daren's plans it will only cost you $100-200), especially if you continue to get your supply of lumber from the those crates.

Tennessee Tim

· #10 · Jan 8, 2014

Growth rings is a big split down the middle on opinions AND I won't go there except that I 've read and seen several noteable craftsman that didn't have the problems.

Woodsman has the specs, I was giving what I've been told 10 years ago that worked in a average house, not thinking we build "tighter and more effecient"now . I've always dried down to 6% but was told most will creep up a point or more in the average shop.

From the look of the lid I suspect it to be a beginning MC condition (prior to building).

By the way...NICE wood burnings!!

As a human I find my flesh wants to skip steps in actual processes/builds, but my mind knows not to for quality purposes. You and your mom have a nice set-up going, take the extra steps that in the end all your labor of love isn't ruined from skipping and all whom purchase are happy too!!!

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MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 8, 2014

I may have to pony up for darens plans. Tim, thanks much. she isn't through burning that's just the tracing. I guess ill dry small amounts at a time so I don't have the issue of it sucking moisture up again...

Tennessee Tim

· #12 · Jan 8, 2014

..."pony up for Darens plans"... IT would be the best investment you EVER made!!!

Where and how is your shop set-up/ built??? garage, shed, portable building, etc., etc???...solid deck walls/roof, lathed walls, NO walls, insulated/noninsulated???.... the reason I ask is once the lumber is dried it still needs a stable enviroment to store in. Your shop should have a DH running 24/7 for optimal operations. It doesn't require as much as you'd think unless you have a moisture problem...dirt/gravel floor, lathed walls with no insulation etc....JUST sealing walls and ceiling with a product like Tyvek/Typar to slow moisture exchange a DH will do it's job. Temp in a shop needs to be 50 or above for most glues and finishes to work their best.

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jan 9, 2014

its a steel building. insulated. cement floor. it has a PTAC A/C and Heat unit but 90% of the time I opt not to run it because when working most times I open the doors or its comfortable. its made out of the same materials the portable carports are made of. I must also note that these lids are the only things ive had issues with and this just started. bigger pieces like tables and benches I have no apparent issues with. the rest of the small boxes are OK except the lids warping. I guess im going to have to build a building just for wood storage and run a DH as u stated.

Tennessee Tim

· #14 · Jan 9, 2014 (Edited)

Building sounds great...your way ahead of the game.....I didn't ask the size...but I run a 70 pt DH in a 28'x32'x10' basement storage and it doesn't run all the time(on auto) and the cieling isn't insulated and the upstairs unfinished as of now and it's operating @ 40%, I run no heat nor A/C....it got down to 36 deg in this 0 deg weather Brrrrrr!!! my unit DOESN'T work good below 40 deg and I'm glad we don't get much of this....I also run a circulating fan and that was the best thing ever to do in the shop/storage. Your wood storage can be in the shop and use one unit in there....the drying of wood still needs a separate unit whether in same building or separate.

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jan 9, 2014

24x33 is the size. it has 9ft walls and is 13 feet up to the peak. no drop ceiling or anything. if u look in a portable carport that's how this is built. its not like wood trusses it has no loft area. what does it cost approximately to run the DH? I understand that the kiln would need a separate DH. does what I said about the wood boxes make sense about nothing warping but the lids and its only on small stuff like this?

Tennessee Tim

· #16 · Jan 9, 2014

Yeah I know the build style...it's insulated and that's the main thing!!!

warping only lids....a couple things why....
1) thin wood effects quicker in MC changes
2) the lids have nothing locking the edges as in nailed or screwed as sides do so there's less resistance to a change
3) as a box, the lid is the weakest point and the inside MC is not changing as quickly as the outside causing warp.

4) try this (only temporary, correct MC issues) open the boxes and let the lids/box equalize and see if that helps or straightens them.

MidGAOutdoor

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jan 10, 2014

maybe attach soime cleats to the underside of the lid is what me and dad were thinking. ill try opening them.

GeorgeC

· #18 · Jan 10, 2014

Acercanto said:
First off, you're yelling. Please don't yell, we can hear you just fine.
As for the warping, are all surfaces finished? It might help slow the drying process and keep it from warping when you bring the pieces into the (lower MC) house.
Another option would be to make an enclosure in your shop and put your wood in there with a dehumidifier. Wouldn't have to be anything real fancy, just a stick frame with a tarp stapled to it. Or something like that.

Good luck!
Acer

Those CAPS sure are easier to read. And just who is it that has defined CAPS as yelling? I do not hear anything at all different.

Personally I would just as soon see everything in CAPS. Does CAPS personally offend you in some way? If so how?

George

George

Tennessee Tim

· #19 · Jan 10, 2014

Cleats can be a pro or con if not installed properly....
1) DON'T glue them!!!
2) they need to float due to being run opposite grain, over bore cleat holes for movement

I would definitely try and allow the open box to adjust....IF they've been indoors closed 3 days, allow open minimum 3 days to see any change in equalibrium of stress, yes this is stress of MC being less (shrinkage) on one side then other.

Logger

· #20 · Jan 10, 2014

I have also had this happen and I have a D.H. kiln (mine were walnut). What I have found worked for me is to finish the lid before hindging. I think it is warping because the inside moister content of the box ends a little higher with the lid closed and it warps just enough to let air in and then it stops. If you have a de-humidifier you could make a small tent with plastic and dry in a few days.

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