[tonyuno]

The quality of a lot of equipment made in Asia is dictated by the companies having them made there not the people who make them. Those of us who are on a fixed income cannot go spending big time money on equipment, we make do with lesser quality and moderate our expectations of the equipment and work around the problems. I would love to have some stand alone top of the line equipment but money and room dictate differently.

 

[ryan50hrl]

And I understand the need for less expensive tools, today they come from china, at one point they came from Japan and Germany....I'm not arguing the fact that there aren't subpar tools that some people wouldn't want.

What I'm debating is a blanket statement saying the tools from Asia are crap and no one should buy them. (Obviously paraphrasing here). If its about buying American that's one thing, but we've seen that European imports are fine, so now were back to just saying Asian tools aren't good.


I'd argue that some Asian tools (powermatic for example) are as good today as you can buy. And a statement that imported tools are junk is an inaccurate statement at best.

 

[tonyuno]

I readily agree that not all Asian produced equipment Is poor, hence the comment that it is the companies quality requirements that dictate how good the manufacturing is. My point is that to only buy North American or German equipment is beyond the pocket of the majority. I recently replaced my old Craftsman fixed base Router with a combo set ($ 106 US) from Skil ( Bosch tool co.) and am totally impressed with the results, both freehand and in the table. It was made in Mexico.

 

[WarnerConstInc.]

Because I like to support places that actually pay their workforce a wage you can live on and provide with. I do not want to give my money to a communist country that owns the majority of our debt. I do want my money to get in the hands of countrys and people that hate the US.

I could go on, but I was trying to keep that part out of this conversation.
Once a company decides to outsource the manufacturing of their equipment to an Asian/Pac Rim country, they are doing so to cut costs.

I will not buy a powermatic made in Asia, it is a shame they have taken that route. It is a shame General canada took that route. it is a shame Americans have let almost everything go that route.

A quality circular saw cost more in 1950 then it does today, I am talking actual dollars, no inflation. I am not really sure if you can call most quality today. We have a throw away mentality now, never used to be that way and I find that a disgrace. You buy quality for life, not just for a couple years.

Go to the power tool section and check out just how good the quality control is, look at what you get when you buy a 1400 saw from Baileigh. You get something that the fit and finish is horrible.

 

[ryan50hrl]

Interesting...so it's not about quality, it's about politics.

What kind of phone or computer are you posting here from if you don't mind me asking?

 

[WarnerConstInc.]

Interesting...so it's not about quality, it's about politics.

What kind of phone or computer are you posting here from if you don't mind me asking?

It's more about quality and pride. I can't afford cheap tools, I don't have time for them. I use my tools and machinery to feed and provide for my family. I hate everything to do with outsourcing manufacturing to Asian based country's. American's have become cheap and constantly want more for less. I hate that. I want value, value to me has more to do with how long of service life I can expect out of something. I don't want to buy the same thing every few years just because it is cheap.

Cheap Chinese and Asian made tools are not made to last, they are made to a price point. A price point that has conditioned people to be used to crappy throw away tools, machines and goods.

 

[ryan50hrl]

I readily agree that not all Asian produced equipment Is poor, hence the comment that it is the companies quality requirements that dictate how good the manufacturing is. My point is that to only buy North American or German equipment is beyond the pocket of the majority. I recently replaced my old Craftsman fixed base Router with a combo set ($ 106 US) from Skil ( Bosch tool co.) and am totally impressed with the results, both freehand and in the table. It was made in Mexico.

Totally agree with you!!! I wasn't glossing over your comment.

Every time this conversation comes up it riles me up. It's not realistic to think every hobbiest is going to have 1900's saw benches and 24 inch 10hp planers. And to make new woodworkers think anything less is junk is counter productive. Would I like a stationary planer, sure, but it would end my woodworking hobby as I'd die trying to get it down stairs, and if I did, it would be the only thing in my shop as there'd be no room for anything else.

Lunchbox planers, and other modern import tools have a place, which is in most hobby shops. Are they going to run non stop 24/7, no, but many of us don't need them too.

 

[ryan50hrl]

It's more about quality and pride. I can't afford cheap tools, I don't have time for them. I use my tools and machinery to feed and provide for my family. I hate everything to do with outsourcing manufacturing to Asian based country's. American's have become cheap and constantly want more for less. I hate that. I want value, value to me has more to do with how long of service life I can expect out of something. I don't want to buy the same thing every few years just because it is cheap.

Cheap Chinese and Asian made tools are not made to last, they are made to a price point. A price point that has conditioned people to be used to crappy throw away tools, machines and goods.

But you've just said its not about quality..there's tons of good quality Asian tools out there in hobby shops, production shops, and huge industrial facilities that work non stop.

I'm not arguing that the 100 dollar table saws you can buy today aren't junk, but your asserting a 4000 dollar Asian table saw isn't good enough quality to provide for your family with? Or that it won't last?

 

[WarnerConstInc.]

I never once said it is not about quality to me. I will not support an Asian based company or manufacturer. To make what they make at the price point it sells for, something is skimped on, plain and simple. It is not my fault there is not much of a choice for affordable machinery that is made here, it is everyone's fault for wanting more for less. It wasn't that long ago there were tons of choices for hobby shop guys, parks, delta, homecraft, Walker Turner, Darra james, etc.

We as American's killed that off. I do not want to contribute to that anymore. I am more then happy paying good money for good tools, made in a place that is not communist, not aiding in party's that hate the US and that the labor force can afford to provide for their family.

 

[ryan50hrl]

I never once said it is not about quality to me. I will not support an Asian based company or manufacturer. To make what they make at the price point it sells for, something is skimped on, plain and simple.

What is skimped on for saw stops, powermatics and high end grizzlys?

They're certainly not cheap....they're not hitting a particular price point.... I haven't seen any particular weaknesses in them? So enlighten me as to where the quality is not right?

What would you expect the life expectancy of a 3500-4000 dollar powermatic tablesaw to be for the average guy on here?

 

[WarnerConstInc.]

Most on here would not even buy a 300-400 dollar saw, too much money.

 

[ryan50hrl]

Because I like to support places that actually pay their workforce a wage you can live on and provide with. I do not want to give my money to a communist country that owns the majority of our debt. I do want my money to get in the hands of countrys and people that hate the US.
.

Here's the real reason I suspect you won't buy Asian tools, and that's fine. Nothing at all wrong with that....I probably wouldn't support Iranian tools if they tried to sell them here.

By the way, talk to someone that's visited Hong Kong or Taiwan, and the people there are pretty fond of Americans. I don't think you've got it at all right that buying Asian is buying from people that hate us.

 

[ryan50hrl]

Most on here would not even buy a 300-400 dollar saw, too much money.

There's a ton of guys on here with grizzly and saw stop saws.....all well over 1000 bucks....and to those that can't afford a high end saw, should they not woodwork?

 

[ryan50hrl]

By the way, should we stop exporting our stuff to china if we stop importing theirs?

 

[WarnerConstInc.]

Why feed them? Why have we outsourced all of this manufacturing? Why should I support powermatic anymore? Someone decided they could make more profit farming out the manufacturing to china, what was so wrong with the last 60 years they were made here?

Chinese steel is not near the quality as US made steel, Chinese bearings and pulleys are no where near the quality of US, German or even Japanese made one's.

 

[jharris2]

It's more about quality and pride. I can't afford cheap tools, I don't have time for them. I use my tools and machinery to feed and provide for my family.

***I completely understand that. The tools you buy are a business investment. They have to perform and last long term under constant use. For you these expenditures are tax deductible?

I hate everything to do with outsourcing manufacturing to Asian based country's. American's have become cheap and constantly want more for less.

***Americans have less to spend so they want the best quality they can afford.

***Also, Manufacturing is cheaper in Asia so who can blame corporations for moving to Asia?

***We could discuss the reasons for "outsourcing" as a response to high manufacturing costs in the US.

***That conversation would lead to finger pointing to "greedy opportunistic" corporations" by some and "greedy opportunistic unions" by others.

I hate that. I want value, value to me has more to do with how long of service life I can expect out of something. I don't want to buy the same thing every few years just because it is cheap.

***We all want value. It comes down to ROI. That's a factor that each of us have to weigh for ourselves.

Cheap Chinese and Asian made tools are not made to last, they are made to a price point. A price point that has conditioned people to be used to crappy throw away tools, machines and goods.

***We'd all love to buy the very best.
The reality for most of us is that we buy what we can afford.

***As much as I would like to I can't always afford to buy American goods.

***I'm buying goods from whatever country offers me the best value given my financial situation and needs at the time of purchase.

....

 

[ryan50hrl]

Why should we feed human beings that are building them? Because its what we've done as human beings for centuries. International trade is nothing new....it's part if the reason North America was discovered in the first place.


So how specifically does the lower quality steel affect the new powermatic table saws, can you provide an instance where anyone has had a problem with the steel in one?

Are you making an assumption that the quality isn't there, or do you have anything to back it up?

Lastly, when did profit become a bad thing? I don't hold stock in companies that don't make profit.....and the more they make, the better my bottom line is at the end of the year.

 

[jharris2]

Lastly, when did profit become a bad thing? I don't hold stock in companies that don't make profit.....and the more they make, the better my bottom line is at the end of the year.

No shame in profit.

Profit is Capitalism. America is a capitalist country.

Anyone who doesn't like it can move to Greece. I hear their doing very well.

Profit is used as a dirty word by those who, in spite of all the opportunity capitalism provides them have to blame someone else for their unhappy situation.

 

[TomC]

Because I like to support places that actually pay their workforce a wage you can live on and provide with. I do not want to give my money to a communist country that owns the majority of our debt. I do want my money to get in the hands of countrys and people that hate the US.

I could go on, but I was trying to keep that part out of this conversation.
Once a company decides to outsource the manufacturing of their equipment to an Asian/Pac Rim country, they are doing so to cut costs.

I will not buy a powermatic made in Asia, it is a shame they have taken that route. It is a shame General canada took that route. it is a shame Americans have let almost everything go that route.

A quality circular saw cost more in 1950 then it does today, I am talking actual dollars, no inflation. I am not really sure if you can call most quality today. We have a throw away mentality now, never used to be that way and I find that a disgrace. You buy quality for life, not just for a couple years.

Go to the power tool section and check out just how good the quality control is, look at what you get when you buy a 1400 saw from Baileigh. You get something that the fit and finish is horrible.

If any of the moderators are watching this thread I just want you to know that it took all the self control that I have to not respond to this. If I did I figure I would get a warning because it could only be called political!
Tom

 

[ryan50hrl]

So for reference to determine the "value" that a modern Asian tool has compared to the old ones.

Grizzly's top of the line 16 inch jointer.....6500 dollars spiral cutter head......and I think you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that it wouldn't run for years and years in a continuous use shop.......

Olivers 16 inch jointer price in 1929.....840 dollars....and according to the bureau of labor statistics....the equivalent of 11,500 dollars today.

Would anyone be willing to spend twice as much.....to have it built here vs there? Cause in my mind...if it dies in 30 years, i'll buy a new one and still be money ahead.....

The argument that Asian tools don't have VALUE, is confusing to me.