Spraying stain with poly
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It wasn't my first choice, but the customer bought a unfinished end table and used a poly/stain combo that I was trying to match. We are retriming a duplex with pine 6 panel doors, base and crown and I was trying cut some time. It never fails when you try to take a 2 step process and make it 1 you lose on quality. I still had to shoot a second coat of poly. I also agree that lacquer is much better but I cant buy it in gallons here only qts. it starts to get pricey ;buying by the qt. My next choice is shellac, I love the dry time.
I don't know where you buy your stuff, but check www.MLCampbell.com or www.chemcraft.com to find a dealer for one of them. MLC is everywhere so unless you live in the boonies there is probably one near you. They sell a good precat laq (Magnamax)and postcat conversion varnish (Krystal). Chemcraft dealers aren't as common but they sell good stuff too.
I use lacquer for most everything, except high useage areas like
tabletops.
According to what I've read, poly is more durable than lacquer,
like pointed out in this article, lacquer is not used on floors
like poly is because of durability.
http://www.minwax.com/products/protective/lacquer-faq.cfm
P.S.
Don't use car lacquer, it's totally different than furniture lacquer.
I had major adhesion problems with it over oil based stain,
It peeled off in sheets.
tabletops.
According to what I've read, poly is more durable than lacquer,
like pointed out in this article, lacquer is not used on floors
like poly is because of durability.
http://www.minwax.com/products/protective/lacquer-faq.cfm
P.S.
Don't use car lacquer, it's totally different than furniture lacquer.
I had major adhesion problems with it over oil based stain,
It peeled off in sheets.
Do not believe what you read from DIY resources. A good precat lacquer (not the stuff you will find at home depot, lowes, etc)
or post cat lacquer/conversion varnish will DESTROY polyurethane in durability, ESPECIALLY anything made by minwax (talk about junk). Post cats are supreme to pre cats. Poly is junk...unless it is a 2K post cat poly. That is durability to the extreme but that is more for exterior finishing and is ridiculous to use with a 2 hour or less pot life...and requires the use of special sealers and strict recoat windows.
Lacquer is not really used on floors because the fumes are ridiculous and the fact that it has to be sprayed. If I were finishing a floor in my house I would spray Conversion Varnish, which is similar to lacquer, in fact some call it post cat lacquer.
or post cat lacquer/conversion varnish will DESTROY polyurethane in durability, ESPECIALLY anything made by minwax (talk about junk). Post cats are supreme to pre cats. Poly is junk...unless it is a 2K post cat poly. That is durability to the extreme but that is more for exterior finishing and is ridiculous to use with a 2 hour or less pot life...and requires the use of special sealers and strict recoat windows.
Lacquer is not really used on floors because the fumes are ridiculous and the fact that it has to be sprayed. If I were finishing a floor in my house I would spray Conversion Varnish, which is similar to lacquer, in fact some call it post cat lacquer.
and that article you posted was talking about non catalyzed lacquer, which is crap....
We are talking about industrial products.
Qoate from the link, "Polyurethanes are more durable than lacquers. In fact, polyurethanes are the most durable clear coatings available to DIYers."
NOTE: DIYers.
We are talking about industrial products.
Qoate from the link, "Polyurethanes are more durable than lacquers. In fact, polyurethanes are the most durable clear coatings available to DIYers."
NOTE: DIYers.
First off I would like to thank everyone for their input, But my orignal ques. of is my gun set up wrong or is there any secretes to spraying a stain/poly combos seems to have been forgoten. I realize now that it was a mistake to use a stain/poly combo. I hoped it would spray better but I found out it does't. I have tried different tips and pressures but have had no luck. School of hard knocks teaches me yet another lesson
I guess we did get a bit off there. I don't know what you are spraying with but it could be that you are not getting good atomozation off the gun and that is causing the separation...assuming the obvious that it is thoroghly mixed and thinned to a sprayable viscosity.
If you are spraying with a air assisted airless or a HVLP turbine and still getting this result then it probably isn't going to get any better...once again assuming the settings are adjusted to the viscosity of your material.
It might just be the finish itself and you would be better to match the color and stain it, then clearcoat.
If you are spraying with a air assisted airless or a HVLP turbine and still getting this result then it probably isn't going to get any better...once again assuming the settings are adjusted to the viscosity of your material.
It might just be the finish itself and you would be better to match the color and stain it, then clearcoat.
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Well I *am* about to do that and I sure would like to hear more details about how you would do it.
I will be installing no less than 7 species of flooring, one room will be mixing them in an arrangement and border, and I would like to hear more details about application of the Conversion Varnish i.e. temp ranges (stated on the can but is there a fudge factor?) humidity limits, brand you prefer, etc.
the wood wil be about 8% MC but will not be alowed to acclimate in the environment for more than a few days.
In the past I have used a "floor grade" polyurethane and have never heard the things you have said, although it sounds like I may need my eyes opened. :blink:
TT- I was just saying what I would personally use. Builders know very little about quality finishes so they will always use poly.
CV is extremely flammable and very toxic....and it will stink for weeks. Some finishers are using waterbourne finishes nowadays to spray floors. There is absolutely no way you could get away with spraying CV in a home that was occupied by someone other than yourself, because like I said it will stink for weeks. But still I would use it because of it's durability and quick dry times.
It needs to be sprayed at a minimum of 70 degrees and this is strict for proper crosslinking. Higher temperatures just speed up dry time. It can be force dryed at 115-130 degrees. Humidity doesn't matter.
The best products: Becker Acroma Euroclear is hands down the best but you will be very lucky to find a dealer.
Chemcraft Plastofix light is next. Rock hard stuff has almost 70% solids. But it is thick and needs to be thinned.
I use ML Campbell Krystal as it is a great product and I have a dealer here in town. No thinning. It is really good stuff too, though I'll probably be using beckers stuff before long.
They are all bomb proof.
CV is extremely flammable and very toxic....and it will stink for weeks. Some finishers are using waterbourne finishes nowadays to spray floors. There is absolutely no way you could get away with spraying CV in a home that was occupied by someone other than yourself, because like I said it will stink for weeks. But still I would use it because of it's durability and quick dry times.
It needs to be sprayed at a minimum of 70 degrees and this is strict for proper crosslinking. Higher temperatures just speed up dry time. It can be force dryed at 115-130 degrees. Humidity doesn't matter.
The best products: Becker Acroma Euroclear is hands down the best but you will be very lucky to find a dealer.
Chemcraft Plastofix light is next. Rock hard stuff has almost 70% solids. But it is thick and needs to be thinned.
I use ML Campbell Krystal as it is a great product and I have a dealer here in town. No thinning. It is really good stuff too, though I'll probably be using beckers stuff before long.
They are all bomb proof.
Oh and I use and have always used a Kremlin Air Assisted Airless to spray it. Lays it down awesome and the atomozation off the gun is incredible.
Links: www.beckeracroma.com
www.chemcraft.com
www.mlcampbell.com
And FYI I have never used it on a floor, I am a cabinetemaker. I use CV exclusively unless I get a big job with a ton of finishing I will use precat lacq. For any finishing, poly is just not as hard...but it is all the DIY'er will ever know.
P.S. never sand maple or birch past 120.
Links: www.beckeracroma.com
www.chemcraft.com
www.mlcampbell.com
And FYI I have never used it on a floor, I am a cabinetemaker. I use CV exclusively unless I get a big job with a ton of finishing I will use precat lacq. For any finishing, poly is just not as hard...but it is all the DIY'er will ever know.
P.S. never sand maple or birch past 120.
This is way I'm here to learn from those who know. I'm getting into custom basement bars and small built-in projects and want to give my customers a quality product. I'm building a deticated shop in april. Most of my projects so far have been for my self and freinds who know I'm in the learning stages of finishing.
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Kevin, thanks for the education. I will be reading everything I can get my hands on, on the things you have brought to light.
Any suggested reference material? I know most everything available is geared for the DIY.. I have plenty of engineer caliber books on timber construction etc. and there is practically no timber construction situation scenario I can encounter that I can't find the answer to, but for finishing I have a couple of books by Bob Flexner and one by the other acknowledged guru whose name escapes me now (book is at home I am at shop) but they are pretty much written for the DIY not the commercial arena.
I'll wager you gained your knowledge by tutelage i.e. being in the industry but are there books and publications which teach these things?
Any suggested reference material? I know most everything available is geared for the DIY.. I have plenty of engineer caliber books on timber construction etc. and there is practically no timber construction situation scenario I can encounter that I can't find the answer to, but for finishing I have a couple of books by Bob Flexner and one by the other acknowledged guru whose name escapes me now (book is at home I am at shop) but they are pretty much written for the DIY not the commercial arena.
I'll wager you gained your knowledge by tutelage i.e. being in the industry but are there books and publications which teach these things?
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Yep, great site I use it too.
For bar tops I use Bartopper Epoxy. It is expensive, but it give that thick as glass look most customers are looking for.
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