Woodworking Talk banner
41 - 60 of 79 Posts

·
humble artizan
Joined
·
107 Posts
On this planet , in the year 2012 , there were no longbowmen shooting across the river in Glasgow

What planet are you on ?
One where people aren't ignorant jerks

BTW I'm a student of medieval warfare, of clan MacGregor descent (Were we enemies in the old days?) and am about to build a literal castle :yes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
Thanks for the wikipedia link. Wonderful replicas, particularly the human-powered wind up mechanism in the Danish unit. Everybody should build a few of these, just for fun. Just rig one up, maybe 250:1, for flinging 16oz ice cubes.
When I built the "just-barely-portable-in-pieces treb (#8?), I recall clearly that my GF observed: "That's the dumbest dang thing that I've ever seen you build." But guess who was the first one to brag about the power and distance? Like she helped a whole lot.

Have you seen the restrictions on treb design in the SCA rulebook? What a waste of destructive effort.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,494 Posts
Of course they were 10 to 20 X that size

The trebuchet in the GalGael video is about 8-9 feet tall .
You in all your ignorance make the claim that

"Of course they were 10 to 20 X that size "

You have yet to back up your fantasy with fact .
Provice evidence of the existance of trebuchet that stood between 80 and 160 feet tall .

The arm on the Galgael trebuchet is about 20 feet long .
Show us the accounts that state that any had arms ranging from 200 feet to 400 feet in length .


You , a student of what ? :laughing:
0n what planet ......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
You might do your own research, Manuka. Hugh Kennedy can fling a grand piano or a Hillman car more than 300m. Several YouTubes.
The throwing arm looks to be 40' long or so.

I agree that anyone claiming that the throwing arm was 100'+ long is 2 bricks short of a chimney. With half a mind to the design, let alone the 12th century wood available, 100' is quite absurd. Sit down, have a drink of water.

My challenge is still out here. I have built 14 functioning trebs. Are these posters posers? Have they built any trebs? All hat and no cattle? Believe me, when you settle down and put one together, it is a thing of beauty to function.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,494 Posts
You might do your own research, Manuka. Hugh Kennedy can fling a grand piano or a Hillman car more than 300m. Several YouTubes.
The throwing arm looks to be 40' long or so.

I already have pal .
I have a fair idea what is out there in terms of information on the matter .
Hugh Kennedy's one is about twice the size of the GalGael trebuchet .

The self professed 'student of medieval history' reckons that
Of course they were 10 to 20 X that size
meaning that the 'real ones' were 10 to 20 times the size of Galgael's "Mighty Helen" .
That works out to be about 80 and 160 feet for the height ,
and
200 feet to 400 feet for the length :laughing:

Funny how history forgot to report that fact eh ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
Think about the castle wall construction, for which information abounds. Wall of stone on the outside, 4-6' thick rammed/packed earth and a wall of stone on the inside. OK? When a 600lb rock from a treb hits the wall, there's surprisingly little damage to see on the outside. Bummer. The shock wave travels through the wall and the inner face of the wall explodes into the courtyard, killing or maiming every living thing in the line of expansion. Of course with the integrity destroyed , the entire wall begins to collapse around the crater.

Anyway. Enough theory about the information that's out there. Inexperienced and subjective measurements can't help. Am I still the only WWT member who has posted pictures of even a few of the trebs they've built? If SWMBO has shut you down, that's a misery for you to reconcile.

My favorite is still the one which can be partially disassembled and stuffed into the back of my Suburban (with the seats folded down!) The throwing arm is solid oak 2x4, 3X wide over the axles.
Axles are both 3/4" steel rod.
Overall, the arm is 69.5" in length. Proportions from sling finger to axle: 53", from there to the counterweight pivot axle: 14". The arms of the counterweight are welded 1x2 steel with a bunch of 2x2x16" steel bars for mass. Don't forget that a basic principle in this was portability. So, standing, the sling finger isn't more than about 80" above the slide surface.

The treb theorists can see that the proportions of the arm dictate the tower height and slide length.
The width of the slide depends on the mass and shape of the projectiles, that won't compromise any of the tower support timbers.

I planned this for 200:1 so a 400g/14oz ice cube is excellent and the evidence disappears.
Sadly, the biggests talkers here were very worried to see this treb in action, one jumping about, wide-eyed, screaming about liability. What did he think a treb was for? All of the others have become strangely silent.

I hope a few members build some trebs, I'd like a serious discussion of changing trigger designs with changing counterweight mass. I'd like to learn more about sling finger and take-off angles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
On this planet , in the year 2012 , there were no longbowmen shooting across the river in Glasgow

What planet are you on ?
Well Earth, part of the reason i brought this topic up is because of my love of all things old. I make and use bows that can reliably hit targets 100 yrds away. its about balance, the arrow and the bow. the longbow men of old used bows that had draw weight close to 100 lb , today a modern compound bow is about 50 to 60. My bows are in the low 50s. but it was also the literal wall of arrows that would be shot. its not just 1 arrow its 300, and its not in well spaced times its 300 arrows about every 7 to 8 seconds. thats with a platoon of well trained and seasoned archers. now you may be correct in them not shooting over the river at Glasgow, but would you like to contaminate your water supply if you kill one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,494 Posts
Well Earth, part of the reason i brought this topic up is because of my love of all things old. I make and use bows that can reliably hit targets 100 yrds away. its about balance, the arrow and the bow. the longbow men of old used bows that had draw weight close to 100 lb , today a modern compound bow is about 50 to 60. My bows are in the low 50s. but it was also the literal wall of arrows that would be shot. its not just 1 arrow its 300, and its not in well spaced times its 300 arrows about every 7 to 8 seconds. thats with a platoon of well trained and seasoned archers. now you may be correct in them not shooting over the river at Glasgow, but would you like to contaminate your water supply if you kill one.
The post that you have replied to was aimed at one particular member , and was in relation the rubbish that that individual has been posting on this thread .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
What stops you good people from building a trebuchet?
I set up my treb, described above and elsewhere, for a 2nd yr class of college
physics students. In that 3-hr lab period, I suppose I tossed 2 dozen ice cubes.

Somebody contributed a grapefruit. Everything went right. We all watched that
grapefruit sail over the parapet of the 3-storey roof-line of the gymnasium.
Best toss ever. Wonderful sense of satisfaction in the function of that design.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
Bad. 'F' for the segway in this thread.

I feel sorry for the lot of you that don't have the opportunity to build trebuchet (what's the correct plural?) Whatever your inhibitions, you need to shed them. . . soon.

For me, it has made the reading of historical information all the more interesting. I've been there. I've done that 14 times. Plus, some contributed pictures of trebs, triggers and all. Build one like that. Try as you might, see if you can make those trigger work with 30,000 lbs in the counterweight. Horse-puckey. Don't you see? The trigger is the military secret.

Given the scaled geometry of a treb, can you imagine that I can carry the complete treb design, any size you can dream of, as a length of knotted cord in my pocket?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,494 Posts
Bad. 'F' for the segway in this thread.

I feel sorry for the lot of you that don't have the opportunity to build trebuchet (what's the correct plural?) Whatever your inhibitions, you need to shed them. . . soon.

For me, it has made the reading of historical information all the more interesting. I've been there. I've done that 14 times. Plus, some contributed pictures of trebs, triggers and all. Build one like that. Try as you might, see if you can make those trigger work with 30,000 lbs in the counterweight. Horse-puckey. Don't you see? The trigger is the military secret.

Given the scaled geometry of a treb, can you imagine that I can carry the complete treb design, any size you can dream of, as a length of knotted cord in my pocket?
Taking into consideration the stress and strain on timber , bolts strapping , and axles ,
weights and sizes of of projectiles , and the loading of them , and trigger systems and their associated issues ,
what do you reckon the largest dimensions that a treebucket could be built to , and still operate successfully ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
The largest functioning trebuchet that I know of is the replica of the "War Wolf," built and operated by Hugh Kennedy in England. He explained that he'd found an historical claim that the WW was capable to tossing a horse into a castle court yard from 300 yards away. He reasoned that if the account were true, it should be possible to replicate the feat. He did exactly that, using an assumption that the horse would have weight some 1,500lbs. Anybody who uses Hillman and Renault cars for ammo impresses me with their design skill.
Only from video that I've seen, the arm is jointed/assembled like a split cane fly fishing rod, possibly 4-5 feet in diameter over the counter weight and likely 50+ feet in length. That means that the tower must be 30-40 feet tall or more. Yes, it is almost indescribably immense.

Be that as it may, I enjoy the entertainment of any treb with payloads of 20 lbs or less. Designed at 200:1, 4,000lbs in the counterweight is not unreasonable.

If you haven't found them so far, I suggest you look at the results from the trebuchet section of the Punkin Chunkin Contest, an annual veggie tossing event in the United States. If memory serves me, the record for the air cannon section is 4,000+ feet/1,230m, across a freeway and into the filed on the other side. They have a contest site. That implies that all the siege engines have to be trucked to the site and assembled.
 
41 - 60 of 79 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top