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Discussion Starter #21
I may be a little confused. If I understand, your buyer wants to use the "Family and Friends" feature of PayPal to avoid paying a fee. If that is correct, I agree with you, don't do it. If you do, all protections for both buyer and seller are gone. If he insists, bow out. You might try to offer splitting the fee with him. If he refuses, bow out.
God luck.
No, I wanted him to do it b/c the seller gets charged the fee. Its all a moot point now but its something to keep in mind with Paypal.

Rebel, you're probably right (Ebay owns Paypal). I used to dabble in Case doctors knives and sold/bought a ton on Ebay never an issue. But this guy didn't want pics or anything to even prove what he was buying.

Lesson learned. I wasn't as interested in selling it as maybe helping out another ww'er.
 

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the offer to pay the fees is a big red flag. crooks intending to defraud the seller will volunteer any concession necessary to get the seller to ship right away - they know the life of their account is very limited.

PayPal/eBay have a "verification" process - this is supposed to weed out the day old crooks' accounts.
the other big flag is a request to ship to a non-verified address - haven't checked lately, but it used to be all seller protections are void if not shipped to the verified address.

I think the best indication of a non-fraud buyer is how long they've been on the service and verified.
sellers rarely "win" a dispute.
 

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Thanks for the feedback. Frank, I‘m not a business.

He agreed to my asking price (80% of retail) & when he instantly offered to pay the PP fees - red lights were going off.

I‘m thinking who wants a tool that bad? I know there are issues with Dominos but in a month or two he can get one new with a fresh warranty.

Apparently people do this all the time. I know a lot of dog breeders who sell puppies for 1000’s to people 1000 miles away on nothing but a picture.
I am looking for a DF500. If yours is still for sale send me a message with the price. I have a DF700 which I love but it's too large to comfortably use use on smaller pieces.

That being said I wouldn't take your buyer's offer to pay for your fees as a bad sign. I use PayPal all the time and if I'm dealing with someone I don't know I do the same thing. I ask to use the goods/services method and I offer to send extra $'s to cover their fees. I was once burned for a $500 recording session I paid for using the friends/family method and ever since then I've always used the other method when dealing with someone that I don't know.

Given that I know you from all your posts on this site if you do end up selling me your DF500 I'd be happy to use the friends/family method. :)
 

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Wishing he had a title...
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Did some searching and this is where some buyers try to scam sellers. The file a SNAD claim Significantly Not as Described. I don't know the details but found this from EcommerceBytes - The leader of ecommerce news and information for online sellers. - EcommerceBytes talking about the update to PayPal Polices.

Bad news: You May Not Get Your Item Back in Cases of SNAD Claims
PayPal's notice states: "For "Significantly Not as Described" claims under our Seller Protection Program, we are clarifying that the item may not be returned to sellers or sellers may be required to accept the returned item and pay for the return shipping costs."


Again, I have not had this happen and I sell a fair amount with Paypal payments. But I have heard of some fold not getting their items back and PayPal refunding the sellers payment. So they got the item free.

Just a heads up and suggest you do a bit more reading if this concerns you. I am not going to drop PayPal but I am going to try to learn more about how to defend myself in case someone pulls this on me.
 

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PayPal and eBay policies and processes are mostly designed to reassure and protect buyers. Their business models depend on active buyers. Sellers have fewer protections, and nearly all of them are pre-sale.

In general, once the transaction has occurred, the buyer is in the driver's seat. Here are some of the scams that buyers have perpetrated on sellers:
  • Buyer is using a stolen identify.
  • Buyer manipulates shipping to make it appear that the item never arrived or was stolen.
  • Buyer fraudulently claims that the item was damaged in shipping. The seller is faced with the possibility that the buyer may deliberately damage the item to justify the return, rendering the item unusable, unsellable, or reducing its value.
    • Variation: Buyer claims damage as a negotiation tactic to induce seller to offer a partial refund rather than going through the hassle and risks of a return.
    • Variation: Buyer owns the same product, but theirs is broken or damaged. Buyer swaps their own broken or damaged product and claims that it is the item they received.
    • Variation: Buyer uses the product for their immediate need, then claims that the item was damaged in shipping. The item is effectively a free rental at the seller's expense.
    • Variation: Buyer has buyer's remorse (spouse complains or regrets expensive purchase). Buyer's remorse is not a valid justification for a refund, so they claim that the item was damaged.
  • Buyer claims that item is not as described. Sends photo of something other than the item that the seller shipped.
  • Buyer sets up a return, then sends something other than the item, but claims they shipped the item.
  • Etc.
The seller may have photographs of the "evidence" - what was shipped, how it was packed, what was returned, etc. The buyer will claim that the seller's photographic evidence is fraudulent and that the seller switched items for the photos. Unfortunately, PayPal and eBay policies favor the buyer in cases where it is the buyer's word against the seller's word.

Buyers committing fraud may wait until the end of the claim submission period. They know and understand the timing of the claims process and how it relates to credit card claim timing, and use it to their advantage. They may delay their own actions until the last minute, or send messages through other communications channels, in an attempt to trick the seller into missing an important response deadline.

In cases like these, the seller eats the loss. If they are very lucky, it may be only the cost of shipping. In most cases, the seller's only recourse is to report fraud and theft to law enforcement, which rarely progresses beyond the report. That's especially true if foreign actors are involved, which is not uncommon. The US persons involved may also be victims of "work at home" reshipping scams.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Speaking of illegal activity, someone tried to saw the catalytic converter off my son's car last night. Are people really still doing this?
 

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Smart and Cool
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Speaking of illegal activity, someone tried to saw the catalytic converter off my son's car last night. Are people really still doing this?
Yes, in the past 2 months the took one off of my Son's RV, and off of his Honda Element, it is a real issue here. The RV had just sold, cost him $1600 for an OEM replacement to satisfy the buyer.
 

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Just another thought on why the buyer might have sounded so anxious to buy your DF 500...

I was just checking a few sites to see what the going price was for a new DF 500. Like most Festool products right now the DF 500 is pretty much completely out of stock with an estimated ship date of May/June. Your buyer might simply be excited to purchase it from you because you have one of the very few DF 500's for sale right now. I don't see any used ones listed on eBay or Craigslist at the moment.

If you put it up for sale on eBay right now you might be able to get close to retail for it given that there is almost no stock of this product in the US right now.
 

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Jack of too many trades..
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Yes, in the past 2 months the took one off of my Son's RV, and off of his Honda Element, it is a real issue here. The RV had just sold, cost him $1600 for an OEM replacement to satisfy the buyer.
It was really bad several years ago. Buddy of mine's car got stolen from a commuter lot (probably for a one-way drug run) and it turned up by the STL Arch without its wheels, battery and catalytic converter. Was like something from the 1970s and 1980s...

Such crimes have died down around here since China's demand for platinum, copper, steel, lead, and aluminum has slowed.

There's a similar deal with car batteries, they steal your car battery. After you replace it with a new battery, they come back and steal that one, because that's what they wanted in the first place...
 

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Discussion Starter #32
It’s a $200 part for his old Honda CRV. Seems like I remember something about they wanted the platinum.

@bernie - excellent point and I think you are right, but as others said overx anxious can = scam. Maybe I’ll do EBay, but I’m not doing PP under any circumstances.
 

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Smart and Cool
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It’s a $200 part for his old Honda CRV. Seems like I remember something about they wanted the platinum.

@bernie - excellent point and I think you are right, but as others said overx anxious can = scam. Maybe I’ll do EBay, but I’m not doing PP under any circumstances.
Supposedly it is the precious metals in the cats that is spurring the thefts. Honda's get hit, Prius is a popular one too.

@TomCT2 you are correct, not sure what I was thinking, Synchrony services Paypal Credit.
 

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If you do a web search for "catalytic converter theft" you will find several articles that report on the recent increase in thefts and the factors that are driving the increase.

I am particularly bothered by what I call "asymmetric crimes" where the thief gets very little, but the victim must spend a lot to repair the resulting damage. It isn't difficult to think of examples.
 

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That Guy
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As a repair shop I deal with customers thousands of miles away on a regular basis. We often make a video of the unit in operation. Nothing spectacular just a time stamped one minute clip of the unit running or functioning as it should. We then email it to the customer ahead of time. Since starting this policy last year our complaints have dropped to almost zero. Crooks know we're loaded with proof so they don't bother. This is also really great if there actually is shipping damage.

On the buying side, it is true that if it's "significantly not as described" the seller must either pay the return shipping or forfeit the item. I've been the recipient of several electronic parts from this policy. Here's a tip though. When you buy something take a picture of your screen with a cell phone or digital camera right away. Some offshore crooks will list with an OEM part number and post up a picture of the original OEM part and after you buy it they change the listing to show the Chinese knockoff they shipped you. By the time you get it there is no way to prove the picture was of an OEM when you bought it and they will claim that the picture showed what was purchased. A photo has saved me three times now. The last time was a charger for a Genie Lift, they had the OEM one listed and sent a cheap aftermarket POS, when I emailed them the photo I had taken of the original listing they gave up, refunded all my $$ and told me to keep it. It's not worth anything but at least I didn't have to fight with them and eBay for a week and then pay to ship it back.
 

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PayPal and eBay policies and processes are mostly designed to reassure and protect buyers. Their business models depend on active buyers. Sellers have fewer protections, and nearly all of them are pre-sale.
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I'm hesitant to accept Paypal as a seller for all the reasons Tool Agnostic cited. I've read about many similar instances going against the seller and how the entire Paypal process is setup to assume the buyer's side and not seller's. As a buyer though, I generally do not do Friends & Family unless the person I'm buying from has a solid reputation or feedback on a forum or group I belong to. In which case, I'll sometimes do F&F to save both of us a bit of money. Otherwise I prefer to have Paypal protection as a buyer.
 
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