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Bah humbug
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Sawstop will try and sell as the original. But eventually they will have to lower the cost and others will compete.
 

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Egg Spurt
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I missed this thread when it was initially posted. If I had seen it I would have recommended against purchasing SawStop just for the potential resale value. Right now SawStop's do have a good resale value but that will be changing quickly as their patents will be expiring in August of this year. It's possible that they may get a year or two more if they try to tie things up in court with patent extensions, but eventually those patents will expire and SawStop will loose their "safety" monopoly in the table-saw market.

Once those patents expire I'd expect to see pretty much every other table saw manufacturer on the planet release their own safety models. Once that happens competition will kick in and drive the pricing down quite a bit and make this technology much more affordable for new and used units.
Some will, some won't. There will always be a saw manufacturer that will sell unsafe equipment right up until it's absolutely mandated by government(s) that they MUST have the safety features built in.. I like to think what will set SS apart in price points will be the overall quality of their saws.. I could be wrong on all accounts..
 

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Speaking of Woodcraft. Worst customer service. The manager was cool, but the sales associate were aholes. Too good and too important to answer my questions. When they did answer my questions, they act like I was taking money out of their pocket. So I ran over to Rockler and bought it from them. The assistant manager was cool and she answer all my questions and made lots of suggestions.
Congrats on your new job and getting your shop set up.

I hope to get a Sawstop contractor in a few months. When I go to the SS site and follow the build and price for a contractor at the end it says in store pick up $0, direct ship $150. On the Rockler site it seems the direct ship is the only option, I haven't asked in person at my Rockler store yet.

Did you pick up your SS at a Rockler store? Was there a shipping charge? They didn't have it in stock at the store did they?

Besides the $150 I'd much prefer to pick it up at the store, I live in the sticks at the end of a nearly one mile long gravel drive, UPS usually delivers to me fine but getting a freight company out here makes me nervous. Visions of they can't find me, won't go on the gravel, I end up having to drive to them, after they've banged the boxes around a few more times, and I still have to pay the $150.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
What??? No way. Can sawstop extend this patent?
What makes a powermatic 30% more expensive than a jet, laguna or grizzly?
Without the safety feature, what is the difference between a sawstop and a lacuna, jet or grizzly?
 

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Bah humbug
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But it does have he safety festure...

Powermatic is a proven saw....

Pro shops don't use Laguna or and Jet a few have gone to Grizxly
 

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Some will, some won't. There will always be a saw manufacturer that will sell unsafe equipment right up until it's absolutely mandated by government(s) that they MUST have the safety features built in.. I like to think what will set SS apart in price points will be the overall quality of their saws.. I could be wrong on all accounts..
Who's to say what's right and what's wrong...it's all opinions anyway. I personally would guess that once that patent expires in August that you'll see Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, ShopFox, Rikon and others jump on the design. Since so many of them use the same core saw designs and parts on many of their models, once one manufacturer releases it the others will jump in.

Putting the safety issue aside, I suspect other manufacturers will jump on it anyway just for the recurring revenue potential of replacing spent cartridges. With things like nails, large staples, wet wood and other hidden gems inside of the lumber we cut just waiting to trip that cartridge and force you to spend $79 on a new one I think most manufacturers are looking to get a slice of that revenue for themselves.

I suspect you're right that Sawstop will hold a higher value given the overall quality of their saws but eventually they'll have to drop their price a bit as competition kicks in. It will be no different than Powermatic charging 30% or more for almost exactly the same table saw/plainer/jointer that Grizzly sells. Even though the design and internal parts are almost all the same Powermatic does a much better job at fit and finish and can get away with charging more.

My uncle owns a SawStop and I've been able to use it a few times. I'd definitely say the fit and finish on that saw is much better than my Grizzly. I can see the justification for paying the additional $'s for a SawStop but with all the urban logs I mill and the reclaimed lumber I use, a SawStop isn't something that would work for me personally.
 

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What??? No way. Can sawstop extend this patent?
What makes a powermatic 30% more expensive than a jet, laguna or grizzly?
Without the safety feature, what is the difference between a sawstop and a lacuna, jet or grizzly?
If SawStop wins every legal patent battle they could extend their patents out to August of 2024. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months and potentially the next few years.

As far as that 30% goes it really all comes down to personal opinions and purchase decisions. With all those manufactures you mentioned using many of the same designs and parts and with all of them actually having their saws assembled by the same manufacturer (Harvey) you'd think no one would spend 30% more for essentially the same gear. But we all have our preferences and ultimately we make purchasing decisions more on feel verses facts a large percentage of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Congrats on your new job and getting your shop set up.

I hope to get a Sawstop contractor in a few months. When I go to the SS site and follow the build and price for a contractor at the end it says in store pick up $0, direct ship $150. On the Rockler site it seems the direct ship is the only option, I haven't asked in person at my Rockler store yet.

Did you pick up your SS at a Rockler store? Was there a shipping charge? They didn't have it in stock at the store did they?

Besides the $150 I'd much prefer to pick it up at the store, I live in the sticks at the end of a nearly one mile long gravel drive, UPS usually delivers to me fine but getting a freight company out here makes me nervous. Visions of they can't find me, won't go on the gravel, I end up having to drive to them, after they've banged the boxes around a few more times, and I still have to pay the $150.

Thanks.
I was lucky my local Rockler had everything in stock including the industrial mobile base and the conversion kit for the base. I had them fork lift the saw and dust collector on my pick up. Getting it off the truck was a mess. Had to go to harbor freight and buy a scissor lift table. Completely worth it since rockler was going to charge me $200 delivery fee and that was the cost of the table.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
If SawStop wins every legal patent battle they could extend their patents out to August of 2024. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few months and potentially the next few years.

As far as that 30% goes it really all comes down to personal opinions and purchase decisions. With all those manufactures you mentioned using many of the same designs and parts and with all of them actually having their saws assembled by the same manufacturer (Harvey) you'd think no one would spend 30% more for essentially the same gear. But we all have our preferences and ultimately we make purchasing decisions more on feel verses facts a large percentage of the time.
That’s interesting. Because as an example LG still have patents on their OLED tv. Im not educated on how or why LG is able to keep the patent behind the technology for OLED TVs, I just assume sawstop can do the same. Only reason I know this is that Sony sells OLED panels that are manufactured by LG.
Also, now that Festool owns sawstop, maybe they have the financial backing to keep their patents
 

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That’s interesting. Because as an example LG still have patents on their OLED tv. Im not educated on how or why LG is able to keep the patent behind the technology for OLED TVs, I just assume sawstop can do the same. Only reason I know this is that Sony sells OLED panels that are manufactured by LG.
Also, now that Festool owns sawstop, maybe they have the financial backing to keep their patents
I'm not an attorney but I do work for a large nationwide law firm with a large IP practice group. All patents eventually expire. The LG OLED patent you mentioned is set to expire in Dec of 2022. SawStop first designed their system in 2000 and after failing to finalize a contract with Ryobi for distribution they started making their own saws for resale in 2004. I suspect most of their 100+ patents have been in-place since 2001 or 2002.

From what I understand the most they could extend their patents is another three years to August of 2024. Given that their patents center around table saw safety I'd be surprised if they are able to extend those patents much past August of this year. Time will tell...SawStop has been spending a lot of money on lobbying over the past few years to help hold onto those patents a bit longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Comparing powermatic, sawstop, laguna and jet, I noticed a huge weight difference. All were 3hp, 50” fence. The powermatic was nearly 630lbs, sawstop professional was 450 while jet and laguna came in at 400lbs. A better comparison would of been the sawstop industrial which it came in at 635lbs. However, if they used the same part, same cast, the weight should very well be identical. The weight different between the sawstop and the laguna and jet was 50lbs. That makes me to believe bigger, thicker better parts were used.
 

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Bah humbug
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Powermatic was always heavier than Delta unisaw. Did it make it better? No...

If all i did is read, i wouldnt know much about performance...
 

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Comparing powermatic, sawstop, laguna and jet, I noticed a huge weight difference. All were 3hp, 50” fence. The powermatic was nearly 630lbs, sawstop professional was 450 while jet and laguna came in at 400lbs. A better comparison would of been the sawstop industrial which it came in at 635lbs. However, if they used the same part, same cast, the weight should very well be identical. The weight different between the sawstop and the laguna and jet was 50lbs. That makes me to believe bigger, thicker better parts were used.
I think weight is an interesting thing to look at while comparing saws but I think most of the differences come in the attachments. Grizzly has 5 different 10" 3HP table saws. The lightest comes in at just over 500 pounds. Most are around 600 pounds but their 10" 3HP cabinet saw with a 52" rip capacity is 910 pounds. I think a lot of the weight differences come in the accessories. For instance the fence and associated rails/stands can be a huge difference. The ShopFox fence that came with my Grizzly 1023 weighs in at over 100 pounds with the rails and legs.

I can tell you that when you look at certain Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, ShopFox and Rikon models the internal components are exactly the same and can be used interchangeably. I've bought several used pieces of equipment over the last two years and when refurbishing a grizzly and rikon unit that I was able to purchase and use parts from Jet and Powermatic units when I couldn't get a hold of Grizzly or Rikon parts.

I have been looking for a used Jet or Grizzly oscillating spindle sander for the last 8 months. I finally found a used sander a few weeks ago on Craigslist but it was a General Industrial unit, not a Jet or Grizzly. The guy that sold it to me bought it over 2 years ago and had never used it. I had to remove the protective film and wax from the top and unwrap all the other parts and sandpaper from their original sealed plastic bags. I ended up saving about $450 buying that piece used and when I got it home I found that the design was exactly the same as the Grizzly apart from the dust collection piece and some minor changes to the door. I'm sure if this sander ever breaks down I could use Jet or Grizzly parts to repair it.

I've always known that Grizzly owns ShopFox and SouthBend but I didn't know that Powermatic and Jet were owned by the same company until recently. I also didn't know that Festool and SawStop were owned by the same company until I was doing some patent research today for this thread. Now that I know SawStop is owned by the same parent company that owns Festool I may have to retract all my guesses about them eventually dropping their prices! :)
 

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Earlier today, I was about to call Grizzly and order the G0690 with mobile base. After tax and delivery, it would of come to about $2200. Just to make sure I didn't miss anything, I looked around and a Sawstop caught my eye. It was 3hp, 220v 30" fence and it was $2900. On top of that, Sawstop is running a promo for a free mobile base. One of the local stores had it in stock and I don't have to pay for delivery as they can just load it on my pick up. Price would of come out to $3,100. We are talking a $900 difference between Grizzly and Sawstop that has nearly identical specs.


Now I know for a fact I don't need a Sawstop (besides safety) and I think a Grizzly is more than I will ever need. But, I am looking far down the road. If something was to ever happen and I need to liquidate my tools. I think this is what separates Sawstop from the other manufactures. Sawstop resale value is absolutely ridiculous. There was a Sawstop on Craigslist and they guy basically sold it for MSRP and it was gone within the first hour. Only difference was it came with mobile base and the buyer saved on tax vs buying a new one. I also saw a Grizzly G0691 a few months ago with mobile base and the guy was asking $1,100. The ad was up for 2 weeks before it was sold. Half of what it originally sold for with tax and base.


I think I am set on the Sawstop.. Between resale value and the safety feature, would that be enough to convince you to get a Sawstop? Another bonus is I don't have to take a day off work to receive the Grizzly from freight. I can stop by and pickup the Sawstop immediately. I have a pickup and a ramp to slide the saw from the bed.
Sawstops innovation is amazing, but can be costly to reset if you want to show your friends how it works. If I were looking for a cabinet saw I think I would be patient and keep my eye opened for a used Powermatic or Unisaw. I see them on Marketplace sometimes for around $1k. They are machines that last generations and that leaves you $2k to put into your shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Sawstops innovation is amazing, but can be costly to reset if you want to show your friends how it works. If I were looking for a cabinet saw I think I would be patient and keep my eye opened for a used Powermatic or Unisaw. I see them on Marketplace sometimes for around $1k. They are machines that last generations and that leaves you $2k to put into your shop.
I think it depends on your market. I wanted a powermatic pm66, but lack of a riving knife kinda scared me off. Also, the ones I saw were mostly rebuilds and they were $1500 and up. I did see some unisaws for about $1000. However, for me it was always going to be powermatic or sawstop. Speaking of, I think I seen a pm2000 for sale once or twice used. Very rare TS.
 

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Bah humbug
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I've got a guard for my unisaw, but haven't put it on . In the professional world guards were tossed. This has been going on for years. Many applications in the professional world that you wouldn't want it. Now Sawstop got around this. I'm not sure if it was for the pro world or hobbyist or both. With the internet tooling went nutz
 

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Fit and finish doesnt make you a living...
I agree with that.. Same with a "pretty" workbench made of only the finest wood available.. I've seen quite a few online that I wouldn't so much as put a pillow on and yet they deck them out with hundreds, maybe thousands worth of fancy schmancy vises to look prettier than a $10,000 dining room table. Highly polished, not a tad of sawdust anywhere in sight, super accurate dovetail joinery and on and on..I guess if you can afford it, but I'd still worry about doing any real work on something like that.. Mine is made with 2X lumber and if I get a little overspray on it that just adds to the mystique.. lol
 

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Thinking about Sawstop I just cut this really nice chunk of 1/4" walnut off a 2 7/8" piece. Looking up close I'm barely seeing saw marks, just a slight amount of burning..looks like it was run through a planer then sanded.. With my old Craftsman this would have been wasted..or at least hours of sanding to deal with saw marks..
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