[Oneal-Woodworking]

None of these questions pertain to the paint-room. THAT side of shop has its own dedicated compressor and moisture separator / air filter setup and it works fine... Much nicer than 'Shop' side compressor stuff.

This has to do with the 'Woodworking' side of the shop and trying to get it set up 'better' than it was before. Would appreciate if some of you guys with bigger and better shops could chime in and offer advice... :thumbsup:

Currently running an Ingersol Rand 2475 series, 7.5hp, 80gallon, 230 volt, 175 psi (max) Air Compressor for the shop. We have burnt it up a few times but 'finally' got it all sorted out and running stronger than ever! Have it hardwired pretty much directly to the 50 amp breaker (more than it 'needed' to start or run) in the panel with HEAVY guage wire (heavier than needed) and since the last rebuild by a 'good' electrician the capacitors have been upgraded and are what our electrician says the thing 'should' have come with from the factory. (He claimed the factory 'skimped' and did it wrong - All I know is that it starts and runs a LOT 'stronger' now and this was even before we redid / upgraded to the 50 amp breaker and heavier guage connections to it. We added one more starting capacitor to the mix and upgraded the running capacitors if I recall correctly - I am NOT an electrician...)

Did not previously even HAVE a functional moisture separator on this compressor and would occasionally get a shower of nastiness come through the lines. Really SUCKED if I was trying to blow the dust off ME or one of the dogs when this crp would happen! :furious:

This is where my questions start... :yes:

Recently got a really nice DeVilbiss Moisture Separator / Air filter / Air Control Unit for the 'Woodworking' side of shop. I looked at the DeVilbiss chart / piping guide http://www.finishingbrands.com.pl/p...0515930 [email protected] (166).pdf but I wanted to do it a bit differently and use a separate 60 gallon air tank at each air drop and have the DeVilbiss filters and separators mounted on THOSE tanks instead of at the end of a pipe coming from the main compressor... (FWIW - First Cabinet Shop that I ever worked in was set up EXACTLY like that diagram above... Their compressor was HUGE (made our 80 gallon IRand look like a toy) and in it's own building just outside the shop)

We already have the additional 60 gallon tanks (from compressors we killed LONG ago) and I already got one of them cleaned up and ready for use. I got the motor and pump off, got the fittings all sorted out to be connected to the main line from the shop compressor and got the DeVilbiss separator / filter installed. Air from the shop line (Ingersol Rand Compressor) comes in from the top like it used to from the compressors original pump and then goes out the side like before but through a DeVilbiss filter to a block with a few quick connect fittings on it... From there - Airlines go to individual tools / machines...

For now - I have the one 80 gallon tank on the main shop compressor with a block on the side of it that has 3 female 'quick connect' fittings. One of these fittings is getting plumbed to go about 20' over to the 'spare' 60 gallon tank (this is the tank with the filter / separator attached) that I stuck next to our new FaceFrame Table and PocketHole Boring machine. Both these machines use airholds and such to operate and 'need' relatively clean air to keep from gumming up the works and costing more money in repairs to their parts down the road. This tool for one:

Plan to soon extend the plumbing from the main compressor to another 60 gallon tank at the very far end of the shop with it's own separator / filter and use it to run other tools than 'should' have clean air.

Currently using 3/8" airline for the 'piping' of the air from the main compressor to the individual tanks but plan to eventually have 1" iron pipe like the shop I worked in long ago...



Considering what I have now (and pretend I have 'real' 1" iron pipe plumbing all this stuff with the appropriate drains at the bottom of each air drop before going into the 60 gallon tanks), What else do I need to be thinking about to improve here???

Would 'like' to have the additional tanks and air 'storage' in the separate 60 gallon tanks for those times when one guy is 'working' and 3 other guys decide to start blowing **** off and get ready to go home. Figure the extra storage could allow the one guy to keep on working without interruption of air supply??? Also figure the additional tanks could help give the air a place and TIME to cool down and help remove moisture / allow it to 'settle' to the bottom of the tank instead of getting sprayed out the tool...

How can I make this 'better' or improve it without buying a bigger and larger main shop compressor???

The one we have is GTG and won't die anytime soon. I can't see that motor or pump 'crying' because it had to fill 200 gallon of tanks in the morning... :no:

Princess waiting to be 'blown off' so we can go home...

Appreciate the advice if you guys got the time... :smile:

 

[Trav]

With all the specs you gave on the compressor, you left off the only one that really matters, the cfm rating. If your compressor makes enough volume for the work you will do, you will not need extra storage tanks. If it came with a 7.5 hp motor I would expect it to make at least 20+ CFMs which should be more than enough to run the pneumatic table and drill and have a couple of guys spraying off and a few 18 gauge nail guns. Look at the equipment cfm rating that you would like to run concurrently and size your compressor accordingly. Then make sure the plumbing to the tools can carry the volume.

 

[jigs-n-fixtures]

A note on used tanks: I wouldn't use them, without hydro testing.

When they rust, it is typically at the seams, and if it blows it will cause major damage.

 

[cabinetman]

Compressors are uniquely designed "packages" to operate with efficiency with a tank size, compressor, and motor of specific sizes. When you alter any part of that engineering, you alter critical functions.

For example, adding tanks is a recipe for disaster. The compressor has to fill it's own tank and any additional ones, which puts the run time over the hill. The compressor will get false feedback from tank pressure. As its been suggested, the compressor size should be determined by the CFM demand of the tools used. You might need more than one compressor.

Looking at the layout drawings from your link, there should be a petcock at the start of the uphill run, and drops with QD's and petcocks at different stations. If you want only one compressor, you might consider a "loop" air system instead of a "dead end". Most airline setups are a line out to an end, and that's it. A loop system runs a line out, around where it has to go, and back to the line out, so the airline has continuous air pressure.

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[mikeswoods]

How is the air piped to the various stations?

Do you have drip legs with drain cocks on the vertical drops?

 

[woodnthings]

Exactly

How is the air piped to the various stations?

Do you have drip legs with drain cocks on the vertical drops?

That would be my first step and also make the main tank drain easily accessible without reaching and struggling to a get to. With your high humidity, a daily/nightly drain off of water at the base of the tank would be the best for the tank life. A large sign on the light switch... "Drain the Compressor"... will be a reminder. A line that runs to a bucket, drain or outside port will keep the moisture out of the shop air.

Additional tanks will give you short term results, but the compressor will not run any less in the long term, so I don't really see any advantages. Put additional filter/separators on the outputs to capture any moisture if that's necessary for "shop" air.

An exhaust fan in the ceiling that removes the dust stirred up by the blowing dust would help.

 

[Oneal-Woodworking]

Compressors are uniquely designed "packages" to operate with efficiency with a tank size, compressor, and motor of specific sizes. When you alter any part of that engineering, you alter critical functions.

For example, adding tanks is a recipe for disaster. The compressor has to fill it's own tank and any additional ones, which puts the run time over the hill. The compressor will get false feedback from tank pressure. As its been suggested, the compressor size should be determined by the CFM demand of the tools used. You might need more than one compressor.

Looking at the layout drawings from your link, there should be a petcock at the start of the uphill run, and drops with QD's and petcocks at different stations. If you want only one compressor, you might consider a "loop" air system instead of a "dead end". Most airline setups are a line out to an end, and that's it. A loop system runs a line out, around where it has to go, and back to the line out, so the airline has continuous air pressure.

.

If you get spare time... Could you educate me on this or point me to a diagram of it???

I am not really clear on that is why I am asking for your help here.

Thanks for your input. :yes:

 

[Oneal-Woodworking]

That would be my first step and also make the main tank drain easily accessible without reaching and struggling to a get to. With your high humidity, a daily/nightly drain off of water at the base of the tank would be the best for the tank life. A large sign on the light switch... "Drain the Compressor"... will be a reminder. A line that runs to a bucket, drain or outside port will keep the moisture out of the shop air.

Additional tanks will give you short term results, but the compressor will not run any less in the long term, so I don't really see any advantages. Put additional filter/separators on the outputs to capture any moisture if that's necessary for "shop" air.

An exhaust fan in the ceiling that removes the dust stirred up by the blowing dust would help.

We do have a ceiling exhaust fan - Worthless for the most part... Easier to set up all the shop fans in-line all pointing towards the open door at the loading dock and then crack the front door to allow 'clean' air to get in - while having a shop 'blow out' party. Most all the air gets 'cycled' in a few minutes that way. Fresh air in - Dusty air out.

On hot, summertime days of heavy use, I can drain the main tank 3 or more times each day and STILL have times when the lines spray water out... There have been times when the actual tank was very warm to the touch (the air does get heated as it is being pumped combined with air being hot to begin with). All depends on how many guys I got helping me out at the shop that day and how much the compressor gets used.

My thoughts with respect to adding the additional tanks was that the air would have more space to 'cool-down' or 'stay cool' in... Air that is in those 'cool' tanks gets filtered and used on tools that 'need' clean air.

Air for less sensitive tools or for 'blowing stuff off' purposes comes from lines attached at the main tank. Compressor might run more when a large volume of air is needed and that PARTICULAR tank might get hot (and cause condensation inside it) but other tanks in the shop are not getting drawn from as much, not getting hot and not condensating inside them and reducing the filter life on them...

Meaning - Suppose I want to blow out the shop or I have a lot of work to do with a tool like a diegrinder (tool that needs LOTS of air but does not 'need' the 'cleanest' of air) - I plug into the QQ fittings at the main tank for unfiltered air... Air compressors runs a while, tank eventually gets hot and condensation starts to happen inside but... Elsewhere in the shop, other tools are plugged into their own tanks that are not used / drawn from as much - THAT air has not been heated so much and then 'condensated' inside the tanks and THAT air should be 'cleaner' and cause for fewer filter replacements in the long term???


Am I wrong in this thinking here?

The way I got it setup as of today - I got 2 QQ fittings at the main tank for 'unfiltered' air and 2 QQ fittings at the additional tank for 'clean' air. I will try to remember to take camera and post pics tomorrow so you can see what I am talking about better... :smile:

Appreciate your wisdom always... :yes:

 

[Oneal-Woodworking]

How is the air piped to the various stations?

Do you have drip legs with drain cocks on the vertical drops?

Temporary 3/8" airlines for now...

Still trying to decide between using PVC pipe or iron for the perm installation of lines and fittings.

I have worked in shops previously with the iron pipe that had the drain cocks on all the vertical drops and have consulted with others that have been in shops with the PVC piping done...

Still not sure which way to go with that... Leaning towards the PVC for cost reasons

I know from experience that drain cocks on the vertical drops may 'help' with iron pipes but they don't get rid of ALL the moisture in the air by a longshot.

I have NO personal experience with the PVC as far as condensation in the pipes is concerned.

 

[Trav]

If the issue is volume you must increase the CFMs. If your compressor makes enough the problem may be that the size of the delivering hose/pipe can't carry the volume that the compressor makes. If the issue is water the get a commercial dryer sized to handle your compressors cfm rating. Your tools will thank you.

Here is one from harbor freight.
http://m.harborfreight.com/compressed-air-dryer-40211.html?utm_referrer=direct/not provided
I have no experience with this particular dryer but for the price it may be worth a chance.

 

[cabinetman]

Temporary 3/8" airlines for now...

Depending on the air volume and pressure loss, you may consider going to a larger diameter.

Still trying to decide between using PVC pipe or iron for the perm installation of lines and fittings.

If you ever have been near an exploding PVC air line you would never use it again. I would go with copper, or black iron.

I know from experience that drain cocks on the vertical drops may 'help' with iron pipes but they don't get rid of ALL the moisture in the air by a longshot.

No they don't, but a properly set up layout with angles and drain cocks will get most of it. As for the "loop" type layout, think of it like roads on a map. You can take a road to a destination, or you can get on a beltway around a city with several exits along the way, and if you stay on it you return to where you started. I couldn't find an image that I totally agreed with, but the one below shows the basic idea. With that layout, full air pressure is piped out, and each drop would have its own filter and regulator.
http://www.wespropowertools.com/images/airsystemdiagram.jpg

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[TimPa]

maybe most important, it is against OSHA guidlines to blow yourself off. it is dangerous (do internet search) and it just blows the sawdust into your building, making it dirty and dangerous. We've stopped about 2 years ago and just use shop vacs with a brush on the end to clean us and products off. the shop, and the air, are much cleaner now. i know - not as fun.

you'll probably find that your air consumption will drop drastically.

 

[cabinetman]

maybe most important, it is against OSHA guidlines to blow yourself off. it is dangerous (do internet search) and it just blows the sawdust into your building, making it dirty and dangerous. We've stopped about 2 years ago and just use shop vacs with a brush on the end to clean us and products off. the shop, and the air, are much cleaner now. i know - not as fun.

you'll probably find that your air consumption will drop drastically.

More about using compressed air for cleaning.
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=21363

.

 

[FrankC]

Adding two tanks to your compressor is not going to accomplish any positive results, it will only cause the compressor pump to run longer and hotter creating more condensation. You can run multiple compressors in tandem using one control in order to increase the volume of air if needed and maintain equal pressure in all tanks.

 

[WillemJM]

If you make sure you have no air leaks, the tanks are drained on a schedule, or with an auto valve you will be fine, other than it will take a bit of time for the compressor to fill the tanks and build up to working pressure. If the compressor will be turned off every day, this may not be the best solution.

Suggest you use galvanized pipe, steel will rust from the condensation inside the pipes and you will eventually end up with red corrosion dust in all your filters.