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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My question is regarding the size of pipe from my Jet DC1100 to my Jet 12" jointer and Grizzly 20" surface planer.

Will I get better dust collection performance by running a 5" or 6" flexible hose from the DC to the tools rather than my 4" flexible hose?

Here are some of my woodshop details:
Dust Collector - Jet DC1100 with a Jet canister. It has a 6" port with a twin 4" adapter. It has been modified to include "Vortex" technology. (To get the Vortex, I used a Wok. The improvement was significant in keeping the filter from clogging.)

Second Stage filter - Shop design with a Thein baffle. See attached Sketchup and photos.

4 port manifold - Shop design and built. See photo. It has a blast gate for each port.

Hose - 4" flexible hose is used for large tools. 2-1/2" hose at each smaller tool.

Current power tools using the DC
:
- Craftsman Hybrid table saw (4" dust port)
- Rikon 18" bandsaw (4" dust port)
- Delta 17" drill press (4" dust port)
- Grizzly 20" surface planer (5" dust port)
- Jet JJ-12 jointer (4" dust port)
- Milwaukie Sliding Compound Miter Saw (2-1/2" dust port
- Shop design router table (4" & 2-1/2" dust port)
- Ryobi Scroll Saw (2-1/2" dust port)
- Grizzly Oscillating Sander (2-1/2" dust port)

Here are some of my thoughts.
1. I am a one person shop. Only one tool is used at a time. My shop is about 525 sqft. (Visualize a three car garage with a full bathroom in it.) I have a 10' ceiling with an 18" high beam running down the center, which reduces the overhead clearance to a little over 8' in the shop center.

2. I am ok with moving my DC and/or Second Stage filter between my two main work areas. I usually use the larger tools together. i.e. jointer and planer, table saw and router, etc. I use the smaller tools on my workbench and just run 2-1/2" flexible piping to them.

3. I feel the shop is too small to run permanent piping. Permanent piping appears to be a low cost/benefit ratio to me. My current thinking is that purchasing a higher performing movable DC would be more cost effective (and flexible) than running permanent piping to get better performance. Another thought is the size of the flexible piping. Is it more cost effective to just change the piping size to 5" or 6" for my jointer and planer?

4. I am just now getting into using rough cut lumber. I have been learning how to get the most out of my jointer and planer over the last few months. I purchased them both used from CL listings. I had my first 600+ bdft of maple delivered in May 2013. The load cost me $700 delivered and stacked below my back deck. The wood's moisture content is down to 20%. I have tuned up the jointer and planer with new blades and a good cleaning. While the maple drys, I have been practicing on other rough cut lumber.

5. I would like to improve the dust collection for both the jointer and the planer. I currently run a 4" flexible hose from my second stage filter to the jointer. The Jointer's dust port is poorly designed. I have already redesigned it, but not made the changes. I am trying to decide if I should change the port to a 5" or 6" opening.

6. The surface planer appears to do ok, but I think it can be improved. The planer has a 5" dust port, so I have 10' of 5" flexible pipe, a 5" to 4" reducer and then 4" flexible to the second stage filter. I believe that I would see an improvement if I could get 5" all the way back to the DC.

Let me know if there is any other information that I have forgotten.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 

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First I want you to know I am no expert on DC's and piping. I did do my own and for the most part it works ok. My main runs are 6 inch with 4 inch drops to each tool. I think 5 inch with my system would have been better because there is quite often about an inch of saw dust laying in the bottom or the 6 inch pipe. I will clean out if I let it run. I'm thinking the volume of air that comes through the 4 inch is enough to carry the saw dust, but when it hits the 6 inch pipe the flow volume drops and the heavier particials fall the the bottom of the pipe.

Maybe this is easier to visualize. If you had 4 inch to each tool, and that went to a 18 in main trunk. The volume flow in the 18 in is much less than in the 4 in. The 18 inch would fill up with saw dust until it got to a point where the flow/volume increased to where it carried the particals to the collector.

This may not have nothing to do with saw dust, but if you have 1/2 inch water hose, you will get a certain amount of water through it a specified psi over a specified time. If you switch to a 3/4 inch hose, at the same psi you will get 7 times more water out of it over the same length of time.

This goes to show, just a little diameter change can make a big difference in output. I assume this is true with vacuum dust collectors also.

The only one that plugs occasionally is the 4 inch from my planer which is a 13 inch delta. It only plugs if I really take a big cut. It also depends on the shape and size of chips also. But plugs at the planner output hole.

This info may or not be of any help. Just my 2 cents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
tewitt1949:

Thanks for your post. Just for a reference point: what model is your DC? would you post the advertised cfm and static pressures?

Thanks.
 

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You may find just replacing some of the long flex runs with straight 4in pipe will have a big improvement.

A Wood magazine article on common dust collector flaws.

Flex is perhaps 3x the pressure drop of straight pipe.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodwor...st-collection/avoid-common-duct-design-flaws/

Another Wood magazine article on how to calculate the pressure drop of a system.

http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodwor...llection/figure-dust-collection-needs/?page=3

Everything we add in a system, pipe, fittings, blast gates, adds pressure drop. More pressure drop, lower air flow. As some point the air flow may be too low to keep the debris in the air stream, and then clogging can happen.

Each manufacturer will recommend a maximum duct size for a given machine. If you go too large a diameter, the air flow is again too low and the system will not carry the debris.

I think you should be looking at minimizing the amount of hose and fittings, they may be killing your performance.

Last year I removed a couple of "Y" fittings, replaced short radius 90's with long radius 90's, removed a 90, etc. This had a big improvement on suction and airflow at the machines.
 

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I agree with Dave's comments. In addition, going from a larger hose at the tool down to a smaller hose at the DC is not generally the best approach. You may get better results with a 4" hose all the way to the tool. But, I'm not sure about that. If your DC has the airflow capacity for 5" (which it should since it has a 6" port), taking it all the way back to the DC at 5" should help. 5" all the way should be better than 4" all the way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I agree with Dave's comments. In addition, going from a larger hose at the tool down to a smaller hose at the DC is not generally the best approach. You may get better results with a 4" hose all the way to the tool. But, I'm not sure about that. If your DC has the airflow capacity for 5" (which it should since it has a 6" port), taking it all the way back to the DC at 5" should help. 5" all the way should be better than 4" all the way.
Thanks. That was my thinking also.

What do you think about going to 6" all the way? I was thinking about trying an experiment with purchasing a 5" to 6" convertor and trying out the 5" hose from the planer to the DC. It would be a minimal investment and give me some good direction. If the 5" worked, then I could just purchase 10' of 6" and try it.

The more I think about it, the more reasonable it sounds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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ORBlackFZ1 said:
Thanks. That was my thinking also.

What do you think about going to 6" all the way? I was thinking about trying an experiment with purchasing a 5" to 6" convertor and trying out the 5" hose from the planer to the DC. It would be a minimal investment and give me some good direction. If the 5" worked, then I could just purchase 10' of 6" and try it.

The more I think about it, the more reasonable it sounds.
6" could be better. At some point you will no longer get a benefit from increasing the hose size. And, as has already been stated, if you go with a hose that is too large for the DC, then you won't have sufficient velocity.
 

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most dc design will insist on 4500 fpm in the pipe, this is the air speed required in the pipe to convey the wood chips/dust. slower air and the chips fall out of the air.

q = v x a, or
cfm = fpm x pipe cross sectional area. this site has decent info in table form.

as dave said, minimize the flex hose - mucho friction.

http://www.spiralmfg.com/downloads/dust_collection.pdf
 

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First I want you to know I am no expert on DC's and piping.

This may not have nothing to do with saw dust, but if you have 1/2 inch water hose, you will get a certain amount of water through it a specified psi over a specified time. If you switch to a 3/4 inch hose, at the same psi you will get 7 times more water out of it over the same length of time.

This info may or not be of any help. Just my 2 cents.
Not sure where you got that info from, but it's a little bit off. Switching from 1/2" to 3/4" might get double the flow or so, certainly not 7 times. Pipe capacity as a rule of thumb is 4X increase in capacity when doubling the diameter.
 

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Alchymist... You are correct. Someone told me that many years ago and I never gave it much thought to being true or not. I did some checking and it is just about double. Thanks for correcting me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I have been reading Sandor Nagyszalanczy's book titled "Woodshop Dust Control". He had some of the same suggestions that have been posted on this thread. So, I decided to try a few of them.

I finished putting a new 6" port on my Jet JJ-12 jointer today. I had a couple of 6" to 5" reducers that I picked up at the local box store that I used with the 10 feet of 5" flexible hose that I ran between my Jet DC1100 and my Jet JJ-12. What a huge difference! The 20 foot of 4" flexible pipe was definitely a huge Static Pressure Loss!

I went ahead and ordered some 6" flexible hose from Woodworkers Supply to try next. It will be interesting to see how much difference the 6" makes over the 5".

Now, I have to make a new cover for my pre-seperater filter so it can handle 6" flexible hose. Anyone have suggestions for some inexpensive 6" ports?
 

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Jet 2 hp 1200 with 5 in duct data

I changed all my hoods to 6 in then bought a Super Dust Deputy (SSD) after seeing the action of a small Dust Deputy. I failed to read the clearly marked box on the SSD that states a 5 in intake. Oops.

I bought long 6in to 5in tapered reducers from Home Depot (HD) adding this to the 6in hoods. I borrowed a Alnor Anemometer model RVA+ and measured the intake numbers at several spots with the results as follows;

1) 6 in impeller opening with a 90 degree joint measured 5676 fpm/1114 cfm

2) 6 in impeller opening with above plus 2 each 90 degree joints and 4 ft 6 in metal snap together duct 26 gauge from HD and it measured 5004 fpm/1001 cfm.

3) above data hooked to the SSD sitting on a 55 gal drum and 5 feet of 5 in metal duct from the intake of the SSD measured 5852 fpm/1170 cfm,

4) using 8 foot of 6in flex instead of 4 foot of 6in metal duct from the impeller to the SSD did not make much of a change when compared to #3 (5447 fpm/1089 cfm).

I did not hook up a 4 in duct but I believe using Bill Pentz data shows that just increasing to 5 in will give you better numbers. Therefore, I would have used all 6in duct, but due to my inability to read clearly marked info I used 5in with a lot more air/dust captured vs using 4in duct. I called Oneida and there will not be a 6 in intake and they do not recommend changing the intake size. Oh well I'll start taking reading lessons with the grandkids.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
fredtina:

Thanks for posting the data, you have inspired me to continue upgrading my port sizes and pipe diameters. I have almost convinced myself that it is time to give up the portability of my setup and put in fixed piping.

Eric
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Finished the Thein Top Hat

I finished the Thein Top Hat separator. It works very well. I also switched from 4" hose to 6" hose between the DC and separator. It makes a big difference! Next I will be integrating the separator in with my DC to shorten the 6" hose from 10' to 6".

I also changed the 4" hose between the separator and the Jet JJ-12 jointer to a 5" hose. I will upgrade it to a 6" as soon as I get another one. After a week of using the jointer with the new setup, I had no chip clogs in the jointer!!!

Here are some photos so far.

Photo #1 shows the Thein Top Hat separator on my barrel with 6" diameter hose.

Photo #2 shows a clamp that I made for the Jet DC-1100 to replace the standard two (2) 4" ports with one (1) 6" port. The DC-1100 port actually will accept the 6" flexible hose with a clamp, but I wanted to be able to quickly unhook the hose when I need to clean the workshop. The clamp allows me to twist the T knob and pull the hose connector out quickly.

Photo #3 shows the Thein Top Hat separator from the front. It is 8" tall and 20" in diameter. It has 6" port for both inflow and outflow.

Photo #4 shows the Thein Top Hat separator from the back.

This Top Hat designed separator replaces an in-barrel design that I have been using for a couple of years. The top hat has so far worked far better than the in-barrel design. I get very few "fines" in my filter or in my fines bag.

The only change that I would make is to widen the drop slot from the 1-1/4" dimension to 1-3/4 or even 2". The 12" wide jointer produces some chips that are large enough to get stuck in the 1-1/4" wide slot.

This project is worth the time, money and effort to build. If you would like more information, visit

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?board=1.0
 

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Sorry for tailgating this thread but my questions are exactly in line with the discussion.

I am putting together a new shop. It's about 600 sq ft in size (20x30ish) with 12 foot ceilings. I have a modest set of power tools but will be getting a new table saw - probably a Griz G1023 3HP or very similar. Only one machine active at a time.

I'm pretty serious about dust collection but there are just too many moving parts in the design process. A while ago I picked up a grizzly G1028Z DC for a song (<$100). Specs: 1.5 HP, 5 micron bag filter, 1300 CFM, 9" static pressure. It's probably a bit under powered for the size of shop and the filter is a dog compared to the current level of technology. So, I may eventually replace it but I would like to use it for a while to get a deeper understanding of DC techniques. Fortunately, my shop has 3 garage doors I can open so fresh air is readily available and my area has a pretty good year round climate.

I am thinking of getting some sort of cyclone separator - Super Dust Deputy seems like a decent choice - to keep the big stuff out of the DC.

So, ducting - I'm thinking a main run using 5" or 6" PVC across the ceiling with 4" flex drops to the tools. Probably 3 drops. The main run will probably be around 20' with a Super Dust Deputy right before the DC input. 5" PVC seems to be pretty rare so maybe I'm stuck with 6".

Questions:
  • Is the Dust Deputy going to choke my DC?
  • Is 1300 cfm too little for a 6" rigid pipe?
  • The Super Dust Deputy has a 5" input port - Would putting a 6 to 5 reducer at the cyclone negate the benefit of a 6" run?
  • I've read that rigid pipe is much more efficient than flex pipe. Would 4" rigid be as good as 5" or 6" flex? There doesn't seem to be a lot hard of data on this topic.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far!
 

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Questions:
  • Is the Dust Deputy going to choke my DC?
  • Is 1300 cfm too little for a 6" rigid pipe?
  • The Dust Deputy has a 5" input port - Would putting a 6 to 5 reducer at the cyclone negate the benefit of a 6" run?
  • I've read that rigid pipe is much more efficient than flex pipe. Would 4" rigid be as good as 5" or 6" flex? There doesn't seem to be a lot hard of data on this topic.

Anyway, thanks for reading this far!
DD; I have no idea, but any separator is going to reduce airflow. Before you spend that much money, take just a fraction of the amount and a little time and build the Thein.


1300CFM: your collector isn't even close to that amount of airflow. You might be getting 1/2 that, probably less....nature of the marketing geniuses that worry more about sales than truthfulness. But if you did move 1300 CFM, that would be probably be about right to put on 6" pipe, even those of use with much larger collectors seldom use 6". The 6" easily allow 1000 CFM (with a 15" woth a 1`5" impeller), and Bill Pentz suggests that's the amount needed at the tool to collect the finest dust. 4" maxes out at somewhere in the 450 (+/-) CFM range.

Reducing at the separator: (my opinion) doing that would make the 6" duct a waste of time/money.

Flex versus solid: I haven't seen anything to support or refute what you ask...but flex is generally considered to have 3X+ the resistance to air flow that smooth pipe has.

Side comment: back in the text of your post you mentioned that "5" PVC seems to be pretty rare"). To my knowledge it's not available at all, At least in the thinwall stuff you want for DC. If you stay with PVC it's 4" or 6"...at even at that the 6" can be hard to find.

All this, of course, is just my opinion and you about those. Suggest you do a little reading here in the areas you are most curious about.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I am putting together a new shop. It's about 600 sq ft in size (20x30ish) with 12 foot ceilings. I have a modest set of power tools but will be getting a new table saw - probably a Griz G1023 3HP or very similar. Only one machine active at a time.
Your shop dimensions are similar to mine, except I have a 10' ceiling and only one (1) six (1) foot overhead door.

I'm pretty serious about dust collection but there are just too many moving parts in the design process. A while ago I picked up a grizzly G1028Z DC for a song (<$100). Specs: 1.5 HP, 5 micron bag filter, 1300 CFM, 9" static pressure. It's probably a bit under powered for the size of shop and the filter is a dog compared to the current level of technology. So, I may eventually replace it but I would like to use it for a while to get a deeper understanding of DC techniques. Fortunately, my shop has 3 garage doors I can open so fresh air is readily available and my area has a pretty good year round climate.
Your Grizzly DC should work find for the tools you have listed. A large CFM does not necessarily maximize your dust collection!!! You are going to have to do more than just have a large CFM DC!!!

I am thinking of getting some sort of cyclone separator - Super Dust Deputy seems like a decent choice - to keep the big stuff out of the DC.
Build your own Thien TOP Hat. It is a great project and has a large improvement on your dust collection. (See above posts for a link.)

So, ducting - I'm thinking a main run using 5" or 6" PVC across the ceiling with 4" flex drops to the tools. Probably 3 drops. The main run will probably be around 20' with a Super Dust Deputy right before the DC input. 5" PVC seems to be pretty rare so maybe I'm stuck with 6".
See the Sandor Nagyszalanczy's book titled "Woodshop Dust Control". There are also a couple of web sites that help you design your system. Here is one of them:

http://www.airhand.com/designing.aspx

  • Is the Dust Deputy going to choke my DC?
All preseparators require some CFM and static pressure. Check out some of the Grizzly systems with cyclones and without. Notice that for the same HP and CFM, the static pressure is much lower on the cyclone units.


NO. It depends on the complete design of the system.


  • The Super Dust Deputy has a 5" input port - Would putting a 6 to 5 reducer at the cyclone negate the benefit of a 6" run?
Yes, you will loose some static pressure, the question is: Will you loose enough to impact your dust collection? The answer is probably not.


  • I've read that rigid pipe is much more efficient than flex pipe. Would 4" rigid be as good as 5" or 6" flex? There doesn't seem to be a lot hard of data on this topic.
Check out page 141 in Sandor's book.

Numbers are inches of Static Pressure loss per foot of pipe at 3,500 feet per minute:

4 inch diameter of rigid is .055
6 inch diameter of flexible is .105

The difference is almost twice!




Since I started this thread, with what I thought was a simple question: "Will I get better dust collection performance by running a 5" or 6" flexible hose from the DC to the tools rather than my 4" flexible hose?"

I have found that the answer was a very simple "YES". But, there were a lot more questions that I needed to answer to improve my shop dust collection.

I found a lot of the answers in references such as the Bill Perenz web site or in Sandor Nagyszalanczy's book "Woodshop Dust Control". There are other good references that you can find on this forum or by Googling "woodshop dust control".

I have about the same size of floor space as you. I only operate one (1) piece of equipment at a time, but I use one (1) to four (4) pieces of equipment at a time, that all need dust collection. I only have one (1) six (6) foot wide door to open.

Here are some of my findings:

1. With a small shop like mine, I really had to ask the question: Do I really want to have a dust control system that is fastened to the workshop? I decided the answer is NO. My shop is about 550 sqft with a 12" jointer, 20" planer, 10" table saw, 18" bandsaw, 10" Compound Sliding Miter Saw (CSMS), 17" drill press, router table, work benches, clamp rack, etc.

I only have two (2) full work stations in the middle of the shop. I rotate the large tools into these stations when I am using them. When they are not being used, they are stored along the walls. This allows me the ability to:
A. prepare rough lumber using my jointer and surface planer.
B. cut long strips using the table saw and CSMS
C. prepare curved pieces using the table saw and band saw,
D. etc. you get the idea...

The two work stations need dust collection, but can easily be serviced using a dust collector on a cart with a flexible hose.

2. Dust collection is very important at the source of the dust. This can't be stressed enough. When the dust is collected at the source it is much more efficient to handle and a smaller CFM is required. My table saw is a great example of this. I have a hybrid cabinet style table saw. It has an "enclosed" cabinet with a 4" dust port at the bottom. Unfortunately, it was NOT a sealed cabinet. The dust collection only worked for dust that dropped to the bottom of the cabinet. My 1100 CFM dust collector (DC) should be able to handle the table saw dust collection since it is only supposed to need 350 CFM. In order to improved the dust collection, I needed to seal the cabinet and only allow air to be sucked in at the source. All of my zero clearance inserts have 6 to 8 one (1) inch diameter holes drilled in them to allow for the saw dust at the blade to be sucked into the DC. I also needed to increase the diameter of the flexible pipe and reduce the length to improve the dust collection. I am also in the process of adding an overhead blade guard dust collector.

3. Dust collection filters need to be kept clean. The best way I found is to add a pre-separator. I am on my third generation of pre-separators. The first was just a 35 gallon container using the Rockler Dust Right庐 4'' Dust Separator Components. It worked OK, but I wanted better dust collection, so I switched to the next generation, which was the Thien in the barrel separator. It was an improvement, but I wanted more, so I created a Top Hat Pre-separator which is working fantastic. Very little "fine" dust particles make it past the pre-separator. I have emptied my pre-separator barrel (44+ gallons) over 10 times since I started using the Top Hat. The "fine" dust particle bag had about a quart of fines for all the 440+ gallons in the preseparator barrel and the filter had hardly any fines in it.

4. Switch from 4" flexible hose diameter to 6". When you compare the maximum CFM capability for a 6" diameter flexible hose vs a 4" one, the CFM is over double! I created the Top Hat with 6" input/output ports. I switched my jointer and planer to 5" flexible hose and saw a huge improvement. My jointer no longer clogs and my planer has very little dust on the exiting boards. I am in the process of converting the rest of my dust generating tools to take advantage of the 6" Top Hat port.

5. The shorter the length of flexible hose, the better!

6. Keep experimenting with a different dust collection options. Find out what works for your shop.

7. Your requirements will be different from everyone else's. With three (3) full size garage doors to open, you have a big advantage over my work shop. Make sure that you evaluate your options, before you spend your money on a system that you may regret having.
 
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