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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have two kitchen make overs to do. Over the years my go to for cabinets has been BM Advance. I prefer not to use it on these jobs due to the 16 hour recoat time and 30 day cure time. I have used Targets EM 6500 with success as long as I shoot a urethane clear over it. Not long ago I did a bedroom set in Targets EM6600 black. I did not go over it with a clear. I have seen some slight wearing through the color. This would definitely not stand up to the abuse of a kitchen. I have heard some good things about Kem Aqua, but also read that it is for new wood only. I have read some have put it over old work after using BIN, but it is supposed to be sprayed over their surfacer for KCMA rating. These kitchens will both have new work doors and drawer fronts, but the boxes and face frames will be a re-finish. Another point I read is that Kem Aqua is prone to runs and sags on vertical surfaces. Do not know what the author was using, could have been an airless. I will be using a 4 stage Graco turbine and Fuji T70 cup gun. Any experience and opinions will be appreciated.
 

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No an answer to your question, but rather an additional one. Apologies if I divert this thread, don mean to but you state experience with BM Advance. I have a kitchen island to paint (over a factory finish) and wonder if it can be brush or roller applied? I don't have an HVLP system. Maybe I should hire it done?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
No an answer to your question, but rather an additional one. Apologies if I divert this thread, don mean to but you state experience with BM Advance. I have a kitchen island to paint (over a factory finish) and wonder if it can be brush or roller applied? I don't have an HVLP system. Maybe I should hire it done?
No problem applying BM Advance by brush, or roller. One of it's strong points is it's ability to level out beautifully. I would suggest rolling it with a fine nap, or sponge roller then back brushing it with a good quality brush. Long light strokes in only one direction.
 

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I'm going to be 100% honest with my opinion, no sugar coating so sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Advance has a 12-16 hour recoat time. What idiot chemist thought that is a good idea? Advance is a great finish when complete but deal killer with recoat, dry and cure times. Sherwin Williams Emerald is very similar but recoat time is 4 hours. I used Advance once on doors and trim in my personal house, Never again. (but a great looking finish)

I have had terrible results with anything pigmented from Target. Their whites yellow and their black has little durability. Unless you add in their crosslinker, or topcoat with clear it's not a good finish on it's own. I do like some of their clears. their Poly is good as is their Conversion Varnish, their lacquers (I think 7000) not so much. I don't use a lot of Targets clears anymore mainly because I have to order, buy additives and pay for shipping. I won't pay $10-$20 a gallon more for a lesser of a product.

We spray mostly Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua Plus and ML Campbell Agualente, both are Pre-cat. Both I can buy locally off the shelf and have them tinted to whatever color I want. Start using either of these products and you may choose not to use some of Tragets finishes. However I think they are a little harder to spray and the learning curve, developing a program that works for you and your equipment is a little more steep than the Target. Maybe the KemAqua and Agualente are a little harder to spray because they are intended to be used by professionals.

KemAqua can be used for new or old work. It can be sprayed over Bin but we just use the KemAqua primmer since it's easier to spray, easy clean up and less expensive than Bin. It also sprays over dewaxed shellac just fine. Same with Agualente.

Please don't shoot me, I'm just trying to share my honest opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm going to be 100% honest with my opinion, no sugar coating so sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Advance has a 12-16 hour recoat time. What idiot chemist thought that is a good idea? Advance is a great finish when complete but deal killer with recoat, dry and cure times. Sherwin Williams Emerald is very similar but recoat time is 4 hours. I used Advance once on doors and trim in my personal house, Never again. (but a great looking finish)

I have had terrible results with anything pigmented from Target. Their whites yellow and their black has little durability. Unless you add in their crosslinker, or topcoat with clear it's not a good finish on it's own. I do like some of their clears. their Poly is good as is their Conversion Varnish, their lacquers (I think 7000) not so much. I don't use a lot of Targets clears anymore mainly because I have to order, buy additives and pay for shipping. I won't pay $10-$20 a gallon more for a lesser of a product.

We spray mostly Sherwin Williams Kem Aqua Plus and ML Campbell Agualente, both are Pre-cat. Both I can buy locally off the shelf and have them tinted to whatever color I want. Start using either of these products and you may choose not to use some of Tragets finishes. However I think they are a little harder to spray and the learning curve, developing a program that works for you and your equipment is a little more steep than the Target. Maybe the KemAqua and Agualente are a little harder to spray because they are intended to be used by professionals.

KemAqua can be used for new or old work. It can be sprayed over Bin but we just use the KemAqua primmer since it's easier to spray, easy clean up and less expensive than Bin. It also sprays over dewaxed shellac just fine. Same with Agualente.

Please don't shoot me, I'm just trying to share my honest opinion.
Just what I was looking for, thank you. I have had the same experience with Targets pigmented, especially the black. Durability sucks. I have a decent amount of spray experience and currently use a 4 stage Graco turbine and Fuji and Apollo guns. I have some kitchen redo's ahead and will be spraying new doors and drawer faces (soft male and MDF) as well as old boxes. One FF all wood, and one frameless, wood and melamine. Does the Kem Aqua surfacer bond well to properly prepped old work as will as scuff sanded and cleaned melamine? I have read complaints of sag issues on vertical surfaces, could have been done with airless. Have you experienced that? Which do you like better for cab makeovers, Kem Aqua or Aquilente? I have access to both. Thank you for your response, it was appreciated. I have had good success with Advance but like you said, 16 hour recoat and 30 day cure sucks.
 

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Just what I was looking for, thank you. I have had the same experience with Targets pigmented, especially the black. Durability sucks. I have a decent amount of spray experience and currently use a 4 stage Graco turbine and Fuji and Apollo guns. I have some kitchen redo's ahead and will be spraying new doors and drawer faces (soft male and MDF) as well as old boxes. One FF all wood, and one frameless, wood and melamine. Does the Kem Aqua surfacer bond well to properly prepped old work as will as scuff sanded and cleaned melamine? I have read complaints of sag issues on vertical surfaces, could have been done with airless. Have you experienced that? Which do you like better for cab makeovers, Kem Aqua or Aquilente? I have access to both. Thank you for your response, it was appreciated. I have had good success with Advance but like you said, 16 hour recoat and 30 day cure sucks.
I had to put a disclaimer because some Target folks are pretty loyal.

Your 4-stage turbines should spray either very well. Since I don't ever spray on site (yet) I use air HVLP and use a 1.8 air cap for the Kem Aqua and a 1.5 for the Agualente. I thin both, maybe 5% max.

I don't have any experience with the KA surfacer and "old" work. However I would ask the SW rep since I know there are a lot of cabinet refinishers in my area that use KA. You may need to call your "main" Sherwin Wiliams store or their industrial coatings store to talk with someone with actual knowledge.

I feel there is a fine line between proper wet mills and sag with Kem Aqua. I use the Aqualente more than the KA and seem to get better finishes. However I don't know if that is because it's a better finish or I have more expereince with it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I had to put a disclaimer because some Target folks are pretty loyal.

Your 4-stage turbines should spray either very well. Since I don't ever spray on site (yet) I use air HVLP and use a 1.8 air cap for the Kem Aqua and a 1.5 for the Agualente. I thin both, maybe 5% max.

I don't have any experience with the KA surfacer and "old" work. However I would ask the SW rep since I know there are a lot of cabinet refinishers in my area that use KA. You may need to call your "main" Sherwin Wiliams store or their industrial coatings store to talk with someone with actual knowledge.

I feel there is a fine line between proper wet mills and sag with Kem Aqua. I use the Aqualente more than the KA and seem to get better finishes. However I don't know if that is because it's a better finish or I have more expereince with it.
I have found that the Target pigmented has worked well as long as I put their clear urethane on top. As a stand alone it just has not held up well. Thanks for your help, been working with my SW rep at our industrial coatings store. Not as experienced as I would have liked, but was able to tell me what his clients are using and how.
 

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I have found that the Target pigmented has worked well as long as I put their clear urethane on top. As a stand alone it just has not held up well. Thanks for your help, been working with my SW rep at our industrial coatings store. Not as experienced as I would have liked, but was able to tell me what his clients are using and how.
Update:

ML Campbell is discontinuing the Agualente and the finish expert at my store recommenced I try Arroya 1K. I don't know about the pigmented stuff but the clear is excellent. Flows/levels/builds really nice and dries super hard. The only thing I don't like about it so far is the data sheet specifies scuff sanding between each coat. Normally I sand after seal coat and the coat just before my final.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Update:

ML Campbell is discontinuing the Agualente and the finish expert at my store recommenced I try Arroya 1K. I don't know about the pigmented stuff but the clear is excellent. Flows/levels/builds really nice and dries super hard. The only thing I don't like about it so far is the data sheet specifies scuff sanding between each coat. Normally I sand after seal coat and the coat just before my final.
The ML Campbell distributor near only carries solvent based and said he can not get the waterborne. Which for me means a 2 hour drive to Charleston or a 2 hour drive to Wilmington. I would rather avoid both.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You might consider looking into Renner’s 083 1K refinish primer and their 765 Super-Hang 2K top coat, plus some of their other 1K/2K options.
I have heard good things about Renner's. Who distributes it? I never had an issue before I moved. I lived just outside of NYC in NJ and moved to SC. I have an incredibly hard time getting hardwoods, quality cabinet grade plywood, and finishes. It even took me over a month to find true 1/4" MDF and I got soaked for it.
 

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I have heard good things about Renner's. Who distributes it? I never had an issue before I moved. I lived just outside of NYC in NJ and moved to SC. I have an incredibly hard time getting hardwoods, quality cabinet grade plywood, and finishes. It even took me over a month to find true 1/4" MDF and I got soaked for it.
Welcome to the Palmetto State.

I also moved to SC a few weeks ago from the northeast, so I couldn’t tell you where to find a local distributor or even where to find a decent slice of Brooklyn style pizza! I’m actually going to be looking into it this coming week, the Renner that is.

I’ve only had the opportunity to use their 851 1K/2K WB self-sealing pigmented top coat on a few cabinetry projects, and their self sealing clears for stain grade cabinetry…both excellent products and super easy to apply.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Welcome to the Palmetto State.

I also moved to SC a few weeks ago from the northeast, so I couldn’t tell you where to find a local distributor or even where to find a decent slice of Brooklyn style pizza! I’m actually going to be looking into it this coming week, the Renner that is.

I’ve only had the opportunity to use their 851 1K/2K WB self-sealing pigmented top coat on a few cabinetry projects, and their self sealing clears for stain grade cabinetry…both excellent products and super easy to apply.
You will love SC, welcome. Where abouts did you move to? I am along the coast just south of Myrtle Beach.
 

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I think @GCTony is right on with his Target comments. As I mentioned in another thread, right now I have 2 cabinet sides markedly yellowing after less than a year installed. Both facing windows, LED light overhead. I’ve forwarded to Jeff Weiss, the only response I’ve gotten is a flurry of promo emails.

I was going to use KemAqua and was told I have to go through industrial sales, and it’s only available in 5 gallons.

I‘ve already got it in my mind I’ll be repainting them in the near future. 😟

I haven’t heard Lenmar Duralaq mentioned. Jay taught me about SDS look like a ton of bad stuff like benzene & toluene?

I have an incredibly hard time getting hardwoods, quality cabinet grade plywood, and finishes. It even took me over a month to find true 1/4" MDF and I got soaked for it.
Where are you located?

I know there are several hardwood/plywood suppliers in the Charleston area. I would expect also Columbia, Greeneville. If you’re up towards NC, Steve Wall lumber in Mayodan is worth the drive.
You might consider looking into Renner’s 083 1K refinish primer and their 765 Super-Hang 2K top coat, plus some of their other 1K/2K options.
Not finding any of those products. Is this the right site?
 

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I think @GCTony is right on with his Target comments. As I mentioned in another thread, right now I have 2 cabinet sides markedly yellowing after less than a year installed. Both facing windows, LED light overhead. I’ve forwarded to Jeff Weiss, the only response I’ve gotten is a flurry of promo emails.

I was going to use KemAqua and was told I have to go through industrial sales, and it’s only available in 5 gallons.

I‘ve already got it in my mind I’ll be repainting them in the near future. 😟

I haven’t heard Lenmar Duralaq mentioned. Jay taught me about SDS look like a ton of bad stuff like benzene & toluene?

Where are you located?

I know there are several hardwood/plywood suppliers in the Charleston area. I would expect also Columbia, Greeneville. If you’re up towards NC, Steve Wall lumber in Mayodan is worth the drive.
Not finding any of those products. Is this the right site?
Yes, that would be the link.

The Renner 851 1K/2K might be a good option when and if you get around to repainting your kitchen cabinets, although it’s intended for spray-only applications.

Duralaq WB is only intended for new work, primarily due to the total system DFT including the existing film shouldn’t exceed 5 mils.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yes, that would be the link.

The Renner 851 1K/2K might be a good option when and if you get around to repainting your kitchen cabinets, although it’s intended for spray-only applications.

Duralaq WB is only intended for new work, primarily due to the total system DFT including the existing film shouldn’t exceed 5 mils.
Kem Aqua Plus pigmented is available in 1 gal. as is the surfacer. I was told the clear satin is available in 1 gal. with other sheens limited to 5 gal.. The industrial coatings store is just a regular SW store where the employees have been trained in industrial coatings coatings. You may have one near you, ask your local SW for it's location.
 

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Kem Aqua Plus pigmented is available in 1 gal. as is the surfacer. I was told the clear satin is available in 1 gal. with other sheens limited to 5 gal.. The industrial coatings store is just a regular SW store where the employees have been trained in industrial coatings coatings. You may have one near you, ask your local SW for it's location.
Thanks I will check again, maybe it’s a local thing. My painter is coming today I’ll ask him.
 

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Kem Aqua Plus pigmented is available in 1 gal. as is the surfacer. I was told the clear satin is available in 1 gal. with other sheens limited to 5 gal.. The industrial coatings store is just a regular SW store where the employees have been trained in industrial coatings coatings. You may have one near you, ask your local SW for it's location.
Sherwin Williams is frustrating. At one time I could only get KA from the industrial coatings store 5 or 1 gal. Then I could get 1 gal from the main local store (more professional customers than DYI'ers). Now I can't get it anywhere except in 5 gal but my local store says I can order 1 gal or 5 gal. I'm convinced there are very few people that work for this company anymore that actually have a clue what is really going on and not just telling me what the computer says. It's getting to the point where I may just look for another option. We already use ML Campbell but I like to have a second option. As much as I prefer not to have to order anything and have it shipped, I think I'll be giving Renner a try.
 
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