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It's a Freud. Looks like $60-$75 for a new one. I've found some ads for sharpening at $15-$20, so it would be worth looking into that option.
My opinion there's a huge difference between sharpening and good sharpening. I've used a local company that turned a quality dull blade into a very sharp garbage blade. I've used an online company that sharpened a good blade and came back sharper and better than it was from new.
 

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I did a little research into carbide tipped table saw blade sharpening, and the best sharpeners appear to be using automated CNC tools to do the sharpening. The CNC equipment brand that I often see is Volmer, made in Germany.

I wonder whether your local company is using older methods, and the online company is using CNC blade sharpening equipment.
 

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Ah, the picture is more clear, no harshness intended. ;) Check the runout. Carbide is the other thing, if you're ww'ing phase becomes dominant, you'll find that out soon enough. Every blade I've bought from HF was junk (oscillating and one throw away 10" blade for some reclaimed wood). Maybe something's changed, but for the same money I'd go with the sure bet.

Re: the 20 years, I swear I've had plane irons get dull on me just sitting on the shelf. I call it "the micro corrosion erosion" - a theory yet to be proven o_O

@TA, Good point. My philosophy is buy a blade worth sharpening, and get it sharpened correctly it will pay for itself again. I have blades 10 years old sharpened half a dozen times and others get sharpened once or twice a year.

I've sent blades to both Forrest and my local service. I couldn't tell the difference. My local guys do use CNC machines.

Keeping your blades clean is very important to life span by reducing heat. Krud Kutter!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I did a little research into carbide tipped table saw blade sharpening, and the best sharpeners appear to be using automated CNC tools to do the sharpening. The CNC equipment brand that I often see is Volmer, made in Germany.

I wonder whether your local company is using older methods, and the online company is using CNC blade sharpening equipment.
I had to go to the local Rockler a couple of days ago. On a hunch, I asked the guy at the counter if they had a "go-to" place for sharpening carbide tip blades. They did, said all reports were good results, gave me contact info.

Contacted the guy. It's $0.57/tooth for carbide blades. So that would be $22.80 for my 40 T blade. Thought I'd give it a shot so he picked the blade up yesterday (yep, he picks up and drops off). Appears to be a 1-man, garage type operation. No idea if it is CNC. I'll let you know how it goes.
 

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I had to go to the local Rockler a couple of days ago. On a hunch, I asked the guy at the counter if they had a "go-to" place for sharpening carbide tip blades. They did, said all reports were good results, gave me contact info.

Contacted the guy. It's $0.57/tooth for carbide blades. So that would be $22.80 for my 40 T blade. Thought I'd give it a shot so he picked the blade up yesterday (yep, he picks up and drops off). Appears to be a 1-man, garage type operation. No idea if it is CNC. I'll let you know how it goes.
I think the CNC machines needed for saw sharpening are around 20K to 40K, not within a garage shop's budget. Those a fully automated however.

These look considerably more costly:

 

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I had to go to the local Rockler a couple of days ago. On a hunch, I asked the guy at the counter if they had a "go-to" place for sharpening carbide tip blades. They did, said all reports were good results, gave me contact info.

Contacted the guy. It's $0.57/tooth for carbide blades. So that would be $22.80 for my 40 T blade. Thought I'd give it a shot so he picked the blade up yesterday (yep, he picks up and drops off). Appears to be a 1-man, garage type operation. No idea if it is CNC. I'll let you know how it goes.
It is definitely not a CNC if it is a garage setup.

I don't know if all Rockler stores in the country offer sharpening, but each of the four Rockler stores in our local area has an arrangement with a local blade sharpener. They will also sharpen other tools, such as router bits. It may be the same sharpener for all the local stores or a different one for each store. The store has a sharpening price list (and a log of blades in and out) at the front register for customers. The Rockler store gets a percentage of the fee. Customers drop off and pick up their blades at the store.

At the Rockler store I frequent, the sharpener guy exchanges blades every Monday before the store opens. That means it is a minimum one week, maximum two weeks for customers to get a blade sharpened.

I doubt that the local Rockler sharpener(s) are using CNC equipment. I don't know whether anything changed during the pandemic, but in the past, the local Rockler stores went for many years without changing sharpening services.
 

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I think the CNC machines needed for saw sharpening are around 20K to 40K, not within a garage shop's budget. Those a fully automated however.

These look considerable more costly:


After watching those videos, you will think this one is a joke. But this blade sharpener actually works. The results depends on how determined you are to make it work and how particular you are with the results

Roger
 

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Cross cut blades have alternating face angles. If there is no way to tip the cutter at the correct angle its creating a rip blade.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm right, he is actually ruining his blades.
 

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Cross cut blades have alternating face angles. If there is no way to tip the cutter at the correct angle its creating a rip blade.

Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm right, he is actually ruining his blades.
Looks like we are all learning something in this thread. The cross cut teeth have alternating angles, but it’s the top angles, not the face. The combination blades have the top alternating angled teeth as well as a flat topped tooth about ever fourth tooth.
Tooth Shape
To combat the problem of splintering, most crosscut saw blades are alternate top bevel (ATB) ground. This means that the top of the teeth are ground at an angle, so that each tooth is only at its maximum dimension on one side, the other side of the tooth is lower. The next tooth around the circumference of the blade would be beveled in the opposite direction.
ATB blades reduce the possibility of splintering by reducing the tendency to push the wood fibers aside. Since a smaller amount of cut is being made, the wood fibers cut more cleanly and quickly. For cases where thin veneers are in use, such as with some types of cabinet grade plywood, HiATB or High Alternate Top Bevel blades are used. The difference between HiATB and ATB blades is that the angle of bevel is more extreme on the HiATB blades. Extra-fine cross cutting requires at least 80 HiATB teeth hooked at 2° down to -5° degrees. Combination of four ATB with one FTG “raker” toothis seen on ATBR saw blades. A large gullet separates the groups of teeth on ATBR set.
Alternate Top Bevel with Raker blades are a combination saw blade, providing the cutting capability for both crosscutting and rip cutting. These blades are also known as “multi-purpose” blades or “4+1” blades. The intent is to make a blade which can be used for any common woodworking cut.

atbr,alternate,top,bevel,raker,combination,saw,blade,cutting,wood
As a combination blade, ATBR blades are a compromise, providing speed and quality at the same time. They sacrifice some of the speed of a rip cutting blade, to gain some of the smooth finish provided by a crosscut blade. This is done by using a combination of ATB (alternate top bevel) teeth and FTG (flat top grind)teeth. Typically the ratio between these two types of teeth is 4 to 1, with four ATB teeth for every one FTG tooth, although other ATB-to-raker ratios exist as well. The ATB teeth on this type of blade cut the corners of the kerf, leaving the center of the bottom of the kerf for the FTG tooth. In these cases, the FTG tooth is referred to as a “raker.” It’s not only cleans out the bottom of the cut, but also removes any sawdust left by the ATB teeth. With many ATBR saw blades, the gullet behind the FTG tooth is larger, giving the appearance of having a missing tooth on the saw blade. Some ATBR blades have the corners of the FTG teeth relieved or chamfered. This helps reduce friction and splintering, preventing the FTG tooth from coming in contact with the top of the sides of the kerf.
The good news is the tooth faces are at a angle, but at right angle to the sides of the blade. Most blades are sharpened by grinding a news face on the teeth. Grinding the face does not effect the top angles.

Roger
 

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The good news is the tooth faces are at a angle, but at right angle to the sides of the blade. Most blades are sharpened by grinding a news face on the teeth. Grinding the face does not effect the top angles.
We could be circling around semantics, but the teeth are at right angles to the plate only on flat top rip blades. If you sharpened every type blade without adjusting for rake angle, you would make rip blades and ruin them.

If the machine is adjustable to both those angles, then yes it would work.

I seems to me its not that simple a process. That's why I let a pro with a CNC sharpen them.
 

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Looks like we are all learning something in this thread. The cross cut teeth have alternating angles, but it’s the top angles, not the face. The combination blades have the top alternating angled teeth as well as a flat topped tooth about ever fourth tooth.
http://circularsawblade.net/crosscut/

The good news is the tooth faces are at a angle, but at right angle to the sides of the blade. Most blades are sharpened by grinding a news face on the teeth. Grinding the face does not effect the top angles.

Roger
Your statement that "... tooth faces ... are at right angle to the sides of the blade." is not always true. The link you included omits discussion of face angles.

The popular Freud Fusion general purpose blade has alternating face angles at 5 degrees. Freud calls it "axial shear face grind". The carbide tip faces are not perpendicular to the blade body. Furthermore, they have a double grind on the side of each carbide tip, reducing friction heat at the sides as they rub past the two sides of the cut.

Other companies make blades with alternating face angles. To get started, do a web search for "ATAF grind".

I wonder how easy it is to keep blade tips consistent and even around the entire blade with the Harbor Freight blade sharpener. It is a manual skill that requires practice and experience. If you grind more off the face of one tip than another, the height of the tips may not match, leading to vibration and uneven cuts. I see the most likely target market for the Harbor Freight sharpener to be customers who go through a lot of blades doing rough cutting, such as construction work; not so much for fine woodworking. That's just my opinion.

The Harbor Freight blade sharpener design cannot properly sharpen my Freud Fusion blade. Frankly, I would not want to use it on my Forrest Woodworker II blades either.

The video and user manual give us some insights into how blades are sharpened in smaller sharpening shops, and how they were done in larger shops before the computerized CNC systems. Some people still sharpen blades with jigs and files.
 

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We could be circling around semantics, but the teeth are at right angles to the plate only on flat top rip blades. If you sharpened every type blade without adjusting for rake angle, you would make rip blades and ruin them.

If the machine is adjustable to both those angles, then yes it would work.

I seems to me its not that simple a process. That's why I let a pro with a CNC sharpen them.
We sure are circling, after all these blades a for circular saws. But I thought you knew what you was talking about when you said face. I was just pointing out, it’s the tips of the carbide teeth, that are alternating angles and the face is perpendicular to the sides, on the majority of the saw blades we use. I haven’t found that only rip blades have perpendicular tooth faces. I post the information I found and it said nothing about tooth face angles. Beside that, a blade that needs sharpening is pretty well ruined.
I think it’s great you can afford professional sharpening by the pros with their CNC machines. But there are alternative avenues to sharpening blades and the blades are not ruined.
 

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Your statement that "... tooth faces ... are at right angle to the sides of the blade." is not always true. The link you included omits discussion of face angles.

The popular Freud Fusion general purpose blade has alternating face angles at 5 degrees. Freud calls it "axial shear face grind". The carbide tip faces are not perpendicular to the blade body. Furthermore, they have a double grind on the side of each carbide tip, reducing friction heat at the sides as they rub past the two sides of the cut.

Other companies make blades with alternating face angles. To get started, do a web search for "ATAF grind".

I wonder how easy it is to keep blade tips consistent and even around the entire blade with the Harbor Freight blade sharpener. It is a manual skill that requires practice and experience. If you grind more off the face of one tip than another, the height of the tips may not match, leading to vibration and uneven cuts. I see the most likely target market for the Harbor Freight sharpener to be customers who go through a lot of blades doing rough cutting, such as construction work; not so much for fine woodworking. That's just my opinion.

The Harbor Freight blade sharpener design cannot properly sharpen my Freud Fusion blade. Frankly, I would not want to use it on my Forrest Woodworker II blades either.

The video and user manual give us some insights into how blades are sharpened in smaller sharpening shops, and how they were done in larger shops before the computerized CNC systems. Some people still sharpen blades with jigs and files.
Could you give us some idea what it cost to have a 60 tooth Freud Fusion blade sharpened. Most of use don’t have the money to buy a $130.00 blade, let alone paying a outrageous amount to get it sharpened.
The Harbor Freight sharpener is designed for the hobbyist that enjoys saving money by DIY.
 

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Could you give us some idea what it cost to have a 60 tooth Freud Fusion blade sharpened. Most of use don’t have the money to buy a $130.00 blade, let alone paying a outrageous amount to get it sharpened.
The Harbor Freight sharpener is designed for the hobbyist that enjoys saving money by DIY.
My response was not just for you, but for others, some of whom may find it through direct web searches, and they may have different needs or interests.

The current price for a new 10 inch Freud Fusion blade is $72 on Amazon, not $130. That's pricey, but not outrageous:
https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Generation-Crosscuts-hardwoods-P410/dp/B000JNTG76

I have not needed to sharpen my Freud Fusion blade yet, but here is Freud's mail in sharpening page. The cost is $15 for my 40 tooth or your 60 tooth blade (?). They sharpen other brands of blades as well, not just their own. I note that they use Vollmer CNC equipment:
https://www.freudsharpening.com/mail-in-blade-sharpening/
Add $15 shipping each way for up to four blades, free shipping for 5 or more at one time.

My blade quality experience with factory resharpening has been excellent. I get back as-good-as-new blades that hold up well for a long time. That was Forrest, and they charge more.

The real penalty for hobbyist blade sharpening is the shipping, because it isn't practical for hobbyists to have many blades sharpened in one shipment. I called a local sharpener who uses Vollmer CNC equipment, and their price is $28.50 to sharpen a Freud Fusion 40 tooth blade if you drop off and pick up the blade. They take two days.

Beyond the initial cost of a good blade, resharpening is less expensive than replacing cheap blades. Comparing total cost of ownership, the two methods are close enough for me. Neither approach compares with the savings from sharpening blades yourself at home.

There is nothing wrong with the Harbor Freight blade sharpener. I pointed out some limitations and potential issues for me. If you are pleased with it and it saves you money, then I am pleased for you, too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Ah, the picture is more clear, no harshness intended. ;) Check the runout. Carbide is the other thing, if you're ww'ing phase becomes dominant, you'll find that out soon enough. Every blade I've bought from HF was junk (oscillating and one throw away 10" blade for some reclaimed wood). Maybe something's changed, but for the same money I'd go with the sure bet.

Re: the 20 years, I swear I've had plane irons get dull on me just sitting on the shelf. I call it "the micro corrosion erosion" - a theory yet to be proven o_O

@TA, Good point. My philosophy is buy a blade worth sharpening, and get it sharpened correctly it will pay for itself again. I have blades 10 years old sharpened half a dozen times and others get sharpened once or twice a year.

I've sent blades to both Forrest and my local service. I couldn't tell the difference. My local guys do use CNC machines.

Keeping your blades clean is very important to life span by reducing heat. Krud Kutter!!
Out of curiosity I set up my dial indicator to look at the runout of the HF blade vs. one of my Freud blades. Don't know what the protocol for measuring runout is - but I was doing a comparison, so assumed it would be more important to use the same setup for each blade.

I made a mark on each blade on a little over a 4" radius - as far out as I could go and clear the gullets. With the HF blade there was a runout of 0.006" (which would include the arbor runout - didn't know how to isolate that). With the Freud blade (a 60T "Fine Cut" balde, very lightly used) there was 0.004" of runout.

Don't know how significant the 0.002" difference is - but I don't get much closer than that with my metal machining projects..
 

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About the same, pretty much anything from the big box stores or thin kerf are considered disposable. Our "pro quality" and specialty blades get sharpened about once a year. I tried the CMT blades and I don't seem to get the life out of them like the Freud, Forest or Infinity blades. I did buy a rip blade from Lowes clearance rack for $6.00. (maybe called evante??) Except for the "singing" it's by far the best valued blade I ever purchased. luck of the draw I guess.
I just had a Freud Thin Glue Line rip blade resharpend and the place told me there was plenty of carbide meat left for two more sharpenings. So, unless you've tried it, I recommend you to keep your thoughts to your self.
 

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For anyone interested in saw blade anatomy, here is a good source.

I may get one of those HF sharpeners just to try out. It depends on the grit, and whether anything changes the geometry of the blade.
If you do get one, there are flaws with it, which this mod rectifies. I find this guy totally boring to the point of annoying, but I like his modifications:

This is the factory "as is" version:
 

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Continuing to flog a dead horse.....

Re: runout you have to check arbor, too. A lousy machine can make a good blade look bad.

In my memory banks I think a good way is to determine flatness of a blade is to measure the the kerf & compare to tooth width. This takes into account the blade in motion (if that matters). Another way is measure your zero clearance insert.

I’ve never once measured blade runout on a fable saw. How ever, it is pretty important in a miter saw . A good test is trimming off 1/64 and see if cut is straight cut..
 
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