[joasis]

After reading jodie's post concerning using the jointer for his glue joints, and the other responses about avoiding using one. I got curious.

So here is the question....how many of us own jointers and use them, or own them and do not use them?

In my opinion, the carbide blade and a good fence on a table saw will do 99% of my glue joints. It is as smooth as my Delta jointer with new blades could ever achieve.

I don't care for the router table combo set up, since I like the absolute dimension from a table saw. I have used the guide on a router, and it is acceptable.

Other opinions?

 

[Big Dave]

I've got Forrest saw blades and they cut clean enough for a glue joint. I do have a planer and will use it on occasion. I bought it thinking that I needed it to edge my boards for glue up but found it wasn't worth the time. The only time now that I use my jointer is when I'm glueing up those 3" thick slabs after cutting them with a skil saw. Another time I will use it is when I've got a timber that has a good bow to it and need to flatten it before running it through the planer.

 

[Rob]

Here's the transition I've been through as far as jointing one edge of rough lumber.
I have a 6" Delta jointer. I guess the tables are 3' long or so. On lumber that is over 5-6' long, I have a hard time controlling it, even with outfeed rollers set up. Now if the stock is 8/4, then it really gets hard to handle.
If I have a lot of stock that has to be edge glued, I will set up the Incra fence on the router table. This works great and I have far more control than the jointer.
If I'm doing just one or two pieces that are fairly long, I use a long, straight piece of stock clamped to the piece that needs the edge and use the hand held router.
With one edge jointed, I always do the other edge with the tablesaw. I use sharp and clean Forrest blades and get a smooth cut.
Now with all that said...if I go buy 200 bd ft of rough stock from my supplier for some project, I will just have him joint one edge. He has some big-ass equipment, knows what he's doing, does it day in and day out and it may cost me $15 tops. Well worth the money.

 

[TexasTimbers]

I use the router mostly for long stuff because it is quicker and more accurate than a jointer for me.

For anything under 8' I use the table saw with ripping sled I made. I can use this for any length bit for stuff 12'+ the handheld router method like Rob uses is how I do it.
Short stuff goes throught the router table and one pass gets it.
I guess we tend to stick to methods we start out using.
Some guys can use the jointer great I just can't stand the thing and have always been able to put on a clean, straight, straight edge with the table saw and/or router/shaper in one pass and quickly.
To each his own as they say.

 

[skymaster]

A jointer should be used for 2 reasons. its fine to get a "strait" edge to rip to size however before you plane to a thickness you should run one face thru the jointer to flatten it, then you have a reference face to dimension from, and you also have a FLAT face from which to get a square edge from.I will run ruff thru jointer to get edge then rip all ruff to a blank size, joint face, joint to square edge then finish to size. Just seems to make better finished lumber for me :}
JackM

 

[TexasTimbers]

You are right of course Jack. It's just that even though I know about the reference face prior to planing, I never have had a problem. But then don't use wood that is so noticeabley warped it requires it.
Noticeably being the key word.

 

[jodiemeglio]

I think I use my jointer a lot because my table saw is not very good. I've been using it this week to cut the glass slot in picture frames and today using a similar method i used it to make an extension jamb for a customers doorway. I was using the router for this but I wasn't very happy with the edge afterwords. My only problem is like everyone else when It comes to using long pieces on it it looses accuracy. I plane my lumber cut it close to the size I need and joint it last. None of my projects have been very big though.

 

[gedereco]

i've decided to buy all new tools for my new workshop i'm building, i'm spending about $2,000 on a saw .so do you all think i buy a jointer or not bother? I haven't got one but i was thinking about it.

 

[Burlkraft]

i've decided to buy all new tools for my new workshop i'm building, i'm spending about $2,000 on a saw

There....that's what I'm talkin' about......:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I love new tools......:yes: :yes: :yes:

 

[TexasTimbers]

Alot of woodworkers do not use a jointer, but those with a joinbter think we are nuts. You decide for yourself how your projects have turned out.
I don;t think i have ever finsihed a piece, looked at it and thought "Man if I had had a jointer that would heve been better and faster".
I should probably incorporate one but have just never thought I needed one. Sold the only one I ever had cause it just collected junk on top of it.

 

[joasis]

My new Grizzly saw with the Fox fence is where I would go again...no doubt...and that would leave you $1400 for other tools....

 

[TexasTimbers]

I have to disagree with joasis. Every penny spent on a saw is worth it. If he can afford 2K on a table saw don't talk him out of it.

gederco there is nothing like cutting with a cabinet saw and for 2K you can get a saw you will never have to upgrade. A contractor saw is okay but it is not first choice.
If you have the dough, don't let anyone tell you to scrimp on a table saw. Here is what you need, or at least something like it if you don't like Grizzly. I only suggest Grizzly when someone has a certain amount to spend. 2K is alot and THIS SAW is alot of saw.


gederco

 

[ewils91]

I was taught to square a board old school I guess. My industrial arts teachers made us memorize "The Six Steps in Squaring A Board" We always used a jointer.

1. Surface your best face flat and true.
2. Plane board for finished thickness.
3. Joint your best edge, mark an X on it in pencil. This is called your working edge.
4. Square your best end with your working edge, this is called your working end.
5. Rip board for finished width allowing 1/16 for jointing.
6. Cut board for finished length.

I didn't know there was any other way. whew 30 years later I still remember.

 

[joasis]

I have to disagree with joasis. Every penny spent on a saw is worth it. If he can afford 2K on a table saw don't talk him out of it.

gederco there is nothing like cutting with a cabinet saw and for 2K you can get a saw you will never have to upgrade. A contractor saw is okay but it is not first choice.
If you have the dough, don't let anyone tell you to scrimp on a table saw. Here is what you need, or at least something like it if you don't like Grizzly. I only suggest Grizzly when someone has a certain amount to spend. 2K is alot and THIS SAW is alot of saw.


gederco

I hate to disagree also, but that is what makes a forum a place of information. I don't like buying import tools, and Delta has great table saws for a few hundred more. I also think just because you have number of dollars to spend, does not mean you must stay to that price...simply because there are so many neat tools out there...I buy as I can afford, 1 at a time...and have regrets every time. I bought a brand new 18" Woodmaster planer with all the accessories...and immeadiately regretted it, because the 24 would have been better...had I went for the 24, I would still be using the antique Delta table saw....man, I don't think I am making a great point here, but.....I sti;; stand behind my choice...money wise, the Grizzly will do it all...and with a few accessories like a sliding table, tenon jig, etc, etc.....you will not be disappointed....table extensions would be nice as well...since the one thing all table saws lack are large enough tables!

 

[TexasTimbers]

My point is the table saw not all the other issues you are bringing up. The heart of the shop. Literally. When the day comes he wants to tackle a large project he will not be sorry he spent the amount he has alloted for the single most important purchase he can make for his shop.
One day he may want to build a captains bed or some similiar project which will entail ripping thick hardwood. Very often these designs call for 3" and 4" hardwood. You need a saw that will handle it.
A contractor saw is called a contarctor saw for a reason. It is not designed to handle 3" & 4" hardwood. It can't; too much abuse on a 2HP motor will burn it out. Plus you don't want to have take all day to rip thick stock even if it would cut it. You also don't want to have to rip it halfway up, flip it, then finish it off. Then you have alot more edge treatment to deal with.
A woodworking shop usually gets around to producing furniture, and even if someone, in this case gedereco, doesn't think he'll ever tackle any big work, that usually goes by the wayside in quick order. Jay, I know you are keeping his best interest at heart wanting to help him get as many tools for his money as possible, but we do someone a big disservice when we advise them to purchase a tool with less capability than what they have already clearly stated they are able to spend on that tool. He told us "I am going to spend $2000 on a saw" he didn't ask "Should I spend $2000 on a table saw?"
But if he HAS the money to afford a saw he will never have to upgrade why would you tell him to buy something inferior?
This is a serious purchase not something to take lightly. I'm not accussing you of taking it lightly but your intital response seemed to indicate you do not fully understand the importance of advising someone how to spend their money on something that once spent, you can't go back. He would end up at some point having to sell his contractor grade saw, take a loss, and then make the purchase he should have made in the first place and by then he may NOT have the funds to make the purchase.
He never said "I can't afford the saw I need and want, so what should I settle for?" that would have been different.
It is called a cabinet saw not because it is designed to make cabinets but because it has an enclosed base cabinet the main purposes of which are to keep moving parts from being exposed and to facilitate optimum dust collection which is extremely impotratnt in an enclosed woodworking shop. A contractor saw can be dragged around on a trailer to jobsites, moved outside and used, or used in a garage/shop where dust is not a concern or at least can be tolerated.
If I'm not mistaken here gederco has his shop in a basement? And while some contractor style saws are sold with "Dust Collection Collar!" It is largely a sales gimmick because it will not capture the lion's share of the mess.
Another issue is weight. WHen you are pushing big stock through a saw you don't want it moving around. A contarctor saw will. Period. If you try pushing too much thick stock too fast through a lightweight saw like that it will move on a slick concrete floor unless you anchor it nd you don't want to do that to a contractor saw.
A cabinet saw is rock solid. It won't budge and it will not shimmy and vibrate asmuch as a contractor saw either.
The one I linked to is even considered lightweight for a cabinet saw but still at 600 pounds it is twice the weight of a contractor saw and it isn't going to go wandering around on him.
Like you said if we disagree that is all it is a disagreement.

gedereco, I might add, if you are going to be doing alot of crosscutting and you probably will, I would even spend a little extra and get a sliding table attacjment for that saw. I will repeat this. DON'T SCRIMP ON A TABLE SAW WHEN YOU CAN AFFORD WHAT YOU NEED IN THE FIRST PLACE! You will tham me. Believe it! :yes:

 

[Kirk Allen]

i've decided to buy all new tools for my new workshop i'm building, i'm spending about $2,000 on a saw .so do you all think i buy a jointer or not bother? I haven't got one but i was thinking about it.

gedereco
If I understand your post, your buying ALL new "tools" and want to know if you should buy a jointer.

YES but nothing less than an 8" jointer. I have yet to meet a woodworker who bought a 6" that didnt want a bigger work deck like those on a 8" jointer. Detailed furniture etc requires FLAT stock to be done right.

You mentioned a $ figure for a saw. Is that the amount soley for a saw and if so, what made you determine that figure over something less or more expensive? The reason I ask is to better understand your situation of putting together a new shop and make sure that the $2k you want to spend on a saw was not meant to say $2K for all the tools.

As far as a table saw goes, I own a 10" contractor saw on a mobile base with a 52" right side table. 2HP 220v which offers 3" cutting depth at 90 degrees, 2 1/8" at 45"degrees and an arbor speed of 4200 RPM. Couple that with a thin kerf Forest blade and I have more than enough table saw for any project. As far as cutting differences I only gain 1" in depth for 90 degree cuts and 1/2" for the 45 degree cuts by going to a 12" table saw. For me, it makes no sense to spend an extra $1400 to gain such a small cutting advantage. That extra money could easily pick up a top of the line Laguna that is designed to cut those thick chunks. Saftey becomes an issue when using a table saw and the bigger the chunk of wood the more chance you have of creating a projectile. Big stock should be cut on a Band Saw in my opinion.

With that in mind though, prior to owning a band saw I had cut lots of large stock on my saw and its rock solid and weighs far less than the 300lb grizzly contractor saw. A good mobile base from Delta or Rockler ensures that stability. Now as far as this "contractor" saw being portable for taking to job sites etc, all I can say is WRONG! This unit or any other 300lb "contractor" saw is not nor ever was designed to be a mobile job site tool. The small, compact models sure but not those with side tables etc.

Dust collection is a variable and a cabinet saw offers better results in that regard but with a good dust collection system or what Kevin called a collar, you can keep the dust down. The key is a GOOD dust collector.

I have no regrets on the Delta contractor saw I purchased and would reccomend it to anyone. If money is no object and your set on spending $2K on only a saw then buy all the saw you can get.

When I bought my first big three tools I spent about 2K. I ended up with a 10" contractor saw, 15" Delta planer, 6" jointer and had some change left over. The only regret many years later is the 6" jointer.

I relate the "want vs need" of a bigger table saw to my Wood-mizer sawmill. I have convinced myself several times that I NEED to step up to a bigger mill so I can get more done faster. Truth of the matter is my "want" got turned into a "need" which was based on emotion rather than logic. All the extra power, speed, etc is never going to make me more productive as I am a one man operation and no matter how fast I cut a board, I can only tail so many boards an hour. Cutting more is not going to change that so I know what I convinced myself as a need is realy only a want.

Dave Barnes, AKA "Arkansawyer" drove that point home better than anyone and for that I thank him all the time because that reality comes into play on all my tools. I "want" a cabinet saw but I truly dont need one as what I have has done all I have ever asked of it...................but I still want a bigger toy:laughing:

 

[TexasTimbers]

Until you have put in some serious hours on both types of saws you shouldn't really attempt to come across like the expert. There truly is a world of difference between the two saws, and spouting specs from the owners manual does not explain why millions of woodworkers buy cabinet saws.

If they are such overkill and if they offer so little an advantage over a cheaper lighter weight saw, then why bother even make them?
Shucks, it seems all anyone needs is a 10" contractor saw!
Let's have cookie-cutter woodshops while we are at it. No thanks. :no:

I'm sure you have never had the pleasure of using a big, powerful, heavy saw for any length of time or you would understand the difference. But, knowing you, I take that back. Since there is practically nothing you don't know, haven't done, and can't accomplish, I'm sure you have probably even made cabinet saws for a living at one time or another too. :laughing:

 

[Kirk Allen]

gedereco
If sharing my experince came across as sounding like an expert I am sorry. I am by no means an expert in anything.

I dont know how many people buy cabinet saws or contractor saws but I do know business and I know it well. Build it, big or small, and people will buy it and all will have different reasons, thats business.

The "short" time I spent in a cabinet shop proved to me that if I was going to be using my saw every day, 8 hrs a day that the cabinet saw was the way to go. They are tough, sturdy, and most brands very accurate, however my need was not for a full time dedicated workhorse so It made no sense for "me" to waste the extra money when it would clearly permit more tools while permitting me to still accomplish what I needed from a saw.

For the record, I have never made cabinet saws, there is a lot I have never done, a lot I dont know but know this, I do know that there is nothing I cant accomplish if I put my mind to it. The Good Lord gives me my strength and through him all things are possible. :thumbsup:

 

[joasis]

Don't we love opinions? Good thing we aren't discussing horses. There is no doubt a cabinet saw would be great, but there are very few real advantages, other then weight. I don't own it, but I have used my uncle's 12" Rockwell cabinet saw...and yep, it is nice, and I wouldn't want to guess how much that bad boy would cost today.

I think the term "contractors saw" is kind of misleading anyway...the term makes you think of a steel tabled Delta you would expect on a job site...now it is the plastic Dewalt and Ridgid saws today...and the Grizzly saw I bought has cast iron tables and extensions, a Shop Fox fence, better then the one on the cabinet saw, IMO, and I have yet to see where I would need more then 3" of cut...if I ever did, there is the bandsaw sitting right next to it....and mine is a Grizzly also...GO55 model I think...6 inch resaw ability. I did not buy the mobile base, and the weight of the saw plus the rubber padded feet allow no movement.

We could go on endlessly about the merits of what we like, and I suppose if I had a budget of $X for each tool purchased, I might go the distance, but I am by nature a conservative type...for $2000, I would have a nice set up with all the tools I could use.

 

[Leo G]

gedereco
If I understand your post, your buying ALL new "tools" and want to know if you should buy a jointer.

YES but nothing less than an 8" jointer. I have yet to meet a woodworker who bought a 6" that didnt want a bigger work deck like those on a 8" jointer. Detailed furniture etc requires FLAT stock to be done right.

Hell, I have an 8" jointer and I want the 12". I use a lot of 10"+ boards and they are not always flat or I get it in the rough for making doors (bottom rail especially).

Get a good tablesaw whatever you can afford as long as it has a 3HP or larger motor. A cabinet saw with a 12" blade would be ideal and if you deal with a lot of sheet goods a sliding table would always be helpful.