[tsteahr]

Hello,

It's been 20 years since I have done any reasonably serious woodworking. It is time to get started on some projects around the house. I need a real TS to replace my nearly useless sears contractor saw. I have decided a 30" hybrid, 110v, would be sufficient for my needs. I would like the option of a mobile base. After much online research, a stop at my local Western Tool Supply (who tried to ram a Delta down my throat), and reading much of this forum, I have my choices narrowed down to the Jet Proshop or the Steel City hybrid. The Steel City is about $100 more then the Jet

Amazon.com: JET 708482 JPS-10 10-Inch Left Tilt 1-3/4Horsepower ProShop Saw Cast Iron Extension Wings, 115/230 Volt 1 Phase: Home Improvement

Buy LT Cabinet Saw 1.75 HP w/30" Industrial Fence, Steel City 10? Cabinet Saw,

I have not been able to see either of these saws locally, so my questions are:

Is one sig easier to set up and get into alignment?

Is one fence better than another (smoother, maintain alignment better, adjustable to maintain the fence face square to the table)

Will one maintain alignment better than another over time? IE arbor remain square to the miter slot, 90 and 45 stops maintain their setting, etc)

Any difference in vibration between the two?

Can the SC be set up with a mobil base?

To add a little confusion: I have seen a riving knife for the first time and it looks like a safety feature I would actually use. I have never liked splitters in the past and would probably not use one now.

The next model up Steel City is just within my budget (a big strech at $500 more) has a riving knife The stronger 220v motor would also be quite nice:
Steel City 35905 10-Inch Left-Tilt Cabinet Saw with 30Inch Industrial T-Square Fence and Riving Knife, 3 HP, 230-Volt, Single Phase - ToolKing.com

Is this bigger SC really worth the extra money (ie a totally different saw that is head and shoulders above the cheeper ones, no comparision between the two) or just a more powerfull version of the 110v model? Is this Riving knife a good setup? I have seen other saws with a split knife. Is one better than another? Are there any other saws at the $1300 point that I should consider. I can't strech to $1600 for a unisaw. I'm not very interested in hunting for a used saw (my contractor saw was used and I wasted my money trying to go cheep). Also, I don't think I can consider Grizzly. I had a contractor Griz 25 years ago and it was such junk I can't bear to buy another Griz, no matter how much bang for the buck.

Thanks for any input,

Tom

 

[42Hickorysouth]

Tom, why not for like $100 more than the jet don't you get the 3hp Grizzly? It is an amazing saw and is well worth the extra for that much difference in power. I would suggest the G 1023 slw if you have limited amount of room in your shop as I do, you can use the added router table on a great foundation of the Grizzly. So you get a good router table and a better saw for just one bill more. Good luck in your search. Let me know how it goes.
Darryl

 

[99flhr]

Have had the S/C shown for a year, very satisfied. Table extension install is a bit fussy but miter slot to blade is a snap. So far it has maintained all adjustments. Liked it so well that I bought the 6" S/C granite jointer. JMO

 

[tsteahr]

Tom, why not for like $100 more than the jet don't you get the 3hp Grizzly?
Darryl

Thanks for the suggestion Darryl. The Gris 1023slw looks like a nice saw, although with shipping is is really about $400 more (800 vs 1200 shipped). I have a very hard time considering Griz because my father had a Griz saw many years ago that I was not happy with. The alignment of the arbor would change depending on the blade height setting. I choose to set the saw square for cutting 3/4 material. It was out at every other setting. The fence had to be aligned square every time it was moved. You could not slide the fence, lock it down and have it be parallel with the blade.

I'm sure the new Grizzly saws are vastly improved and nothing like that old contractor griz, but I have a very hard time considering a brand that has left a bad impression. I can't buy another Griz without actually being able to actually use one first.

So unfortunatly Griz is out. I'll consider anything else but griz.

 

[musky_xl]

Have you looked at the Rigid saw? I believe its the 3650 or 3660(?).

A friend of mine has one... the table is absolutely flat and the fence is straight. He has had no problems with it bogging down under load and for the money I would say its a very good deal.


And if you're one that needs the latest fad...one has a granite table top

 

[johnep]

We had a distinguished lady poster NL who praised SC on this forum
johnep

 

[knotscott]

Hi Tom - I think those are both excellent hybrid choices, and both offer several advantages over a more traditional contractor saw design. If you have 220v, the step up to a cabinet saw offers even more advantages yet, but the hybrids address the vast majority of the common complaints with contractor saws. Both of those hybrids have been highly rated by owners and reviewers, and there are undoubtedly some pros and cons with both. Ultimately both saws should serve you very well once set up correctly and equipped with a good blade.

The Industrial fence of the SC gets rave comments from owners, but I've read at least one review where the Jet's fence rated very highly as well.

The SC has a big advantage in weight (440# vs 292#), which will give it more stability and more of the feel of a cabinet saw. The SC includes an extension table on the right side which is nice, and allows you to slide the fence a bit further to the right for more rip capacity.

The SC also has the benefit of cabinet mounted trunnions...they add a lot of mass and are much easier to reach and adjust. The Jet uses table mounted trunnions vs the cabinet mounted but they feature a more elegant one-piece cast arbor carriage vs the connecting rods used by the SC. The connecting rods don't seem to be as important in a hybrid configuration as they are in a contractor saw because the motor location (inside) doesn't put as much lateral stress on the rods as the exterior location of a contractor saw. (can't help but wonder if the rods were twisted on your father's Grizzly contractor saw, as that's not an unusual problem for contractor saws with connecting rods). The hybrids don't seem to suffer the same problems, and the industrial style cabinet saws definitely don't.

Here's a peek of the trunnion system of the SC hybrid:

Hope you'll post a follow up once you've made a purchase... :thumbsup:

 

[42Hickorysouth]

Tom I understand your reservation if you have had a hard time with one before. I am very happy with mine, every time I check it it is true so I guess your right griz has made some improvements over the years. Your shop is only as good as your table saw, if it isn't cutting right all will be a mess.
Good luck on your decision I'm sure you will be happy if you put this much time and effort into getting what fits your needs.
Darryl.

 

[tsteahr]

Knotscott, thanks for your thoughtful reply. About that gris contractor saw. I was so frustrated with that saw because I had been accustomed to using a fabulous old 14" powermatic in my school shop classes. As I kid I was so excited when my dad said he was getting a TS. Then the gris contractor saw showed up and I could never get it to work right. Now I know why. Thanks much for sharing.

The trunnion mount setup of the SC is quite impressive for a inexpensive saw. Thanks for sharing that photo! From your comments I am now leaning toward a SC.

I realize this is a subjective question, but is there any guidance you can give me to help me decide if I should step up to the SC 35905 cabinet saw? It seems like the riving knife is a better setup (allow more freedom around the blade while still guarding) than a splitter. Is that true? I suspect the cabinet saw will be smoother in operation and the 220v will have lots of power. (But I could get the hybrid in 220 as well) What else can I expect between the hybrid and the cabinet?

Finally, the granite tops vs cast. Granite seems like a nifty idea but cast has been proven for ever. I know granite counter tops can have the edges chipped pretty easy. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks

Hi Tom - I think those are both excellent hybrid choices, and both offer several advantages over a more traditional contractor saw design. If you have 220v, the step up to a cabinet saw offers even more advantages yet, but the hybrids address the vast majority of the common complaints with contractor saws. Both of those hybrids have been highly rated by owners and reviewers, and there are undoubtedly some pros and cons with both. Ultimately both saws should serve you very well once set up correctly and equipped with a good blade.

The Industrial fence of the SC gets rave comments from owners, but I've read at least one review where the Jet's fence rated very highly as well.

The SC has a big advantage in weight (440# vs 292#), which will give it more stability and more of the feel of a cabinet saw. The SC includes an extension table on the right side which is nice, and allows you to slide the fence a bit further to the right for more rip capacity.

The SC also has the benefit of cabinet mounted trunnions...they add a lot of mass and are much easier to reach and adjust. The Jet uses table mounted trunnions vs the cabinet mounted but they feature a more elegant one-piece cast arbor carriage vs the connecting rods used by the SC. The connecting rods don't seem to be as important in a hybrid configuration as they are in a contractor saw because the motor location (inside) doesn't put as much lateral stress on the rods as the exterior location of a contractor saw. (can't help but wonder if the rods were twisted on your father's Grizzly contractor saw, as that's not an unusual problem for contractor saws with connecting rods). The hybrids don't seem to suffer the same problems, and the industrial style cabinet saws definitely don't.

Hope you'll post a follow up once you've made a purchase... :thumbsup:

 

[knotscott]

You're welcome Tom. The SC hybrid has much in common with the very popular and well respected Craftsman 22124 hybrid....SC owns Orion who actually makes both models. The SC is said to have some slightly beefier trunnions parts because they also offer a 3hp hybrid version of the same saw, and the SC trunnions are all made to handle the larger motor.

I owned a Cman 22124 for 3 years and loved the saw. The better hybrids like these are excellent for home hobby use. The 1-3/4hp version should have plenty of power even on 110v, assuming the circuit is a dedicated 20 amp circuit that is up to code, and assuming it's well aligned and you make good blade choices. 220v just helps ensure that you'll encounter less voltage loss than an inadequate 110v line. I've since taken the step to a Shop Fox W1677 3hp industrial style cabinet saw. The Shop Fox is heavier, more powerful, has larger handwheels, smoother gears, etc., but it was really more of a "want" than a "need". I'm grateful for the upgrades mentioned and extra power, etc., but it doesn't really give me additional capability over the hybrid...it's more of a confidence and pride thing. :laughing:

SC also makes a true industrial cabinet saw and offers 3hp and 5hp versions that are more robustly built than the hybrids, including the 3hp hybrid. They have dual and triple belt drives, huge arbor carriages, and massive trunnion components, in addition to the bigger motors. They're a little overkill for hobby work, but that type of saw is probably closer to the PM you've used than the hybrids, and often aren't too much more expensive. I'm not sure where the 35905 falls in the SC lineup but is something I'd definitely check into before buying. A riving knife is a nice feature, but is basically a more elegant version of the motor traditional splitter...it's major safety advantage is that you'll actually use it because it's not in the way most of the time. Some extra horsepower is never a bad thing, and I think the granite top is a neat idea, but I'm not sure that those features are worth an extra $500 to me, unless it also gave me the added mass and construction advantages of an industrial type cabinet saw...guess that's an executive decision you'll have to make.

Jet, Steel City, Shop Fox, General International, and Grizzly are all cabinet saws that I'd consider depending on the deal I could swing. I believe you coud probably get a Shop Fox cabinet saw from Utter Guys within budget, but it's only fair to warn you that SF is associated with Grizzly and is the same basic saw as the Grizzly 1023, however it's available through dealers and has a longer warranty.

In case you're curious, here's a look the trunnions of a couple of industrial type cab saws:

 

[KevinK]

Hi Tom

Very few saws will equal a powermatic, hybrid's are reasonable saws, but like others have stated a cabinet saw is a much better saw. General in Canada also makes reasonable saws, and the Canadian made cabinet saw is as good the Powermatic, in my opinion. The other think to consider is left or right tilt. I would get a saw that can be wired at 110 or 220 it makes a lot of difference in power. Also a good quality fence is a definite, but a major cost.

You may also want to try the used sites such as craigslist or usedvictoria, you would be amazed at some of the deals you can get.

Well good luck, there are a lot of choices and options to consider today.

Kevin

 

[Ashman]

Take a look at the Ridgid R4511 on the Home Depot site. If you don't mind a granite top I believe its the same as the Steel City set up. It looks like the Jet and the Sears 22114 and it has cabinet mounted trunions and comes with a mobile base. It is priced at $599 but it is new and I understand it will be in the stores after Christmas.

 

[tsteahr]

OK, I stopped by Sears and looked at the Cman 22114. Overall I was not as impressed as I expected to be. The floor unit seemed a little beat up and shopworn. I did stick my head under the saw and I was impressed with the trunions. The arbor raised and tilted smoothly. One thing I did notice is the handwheels were loose. Like a shaft with a incorrect key in the keyway. Is this normal?

Do the SC saws use the same handwheels? Are they loose like that? That would be a deal killer.

Overall I was surprised to find I actually liked the Delta Hybrid I looked at over the weekend a little better. To be fair the delta is $200 more but the handwheels operated a little smoother. The Delta seemed a little better build quality (fit and finish) but a little smaller, lighter and less beefy.

While the Jet hybrid is still in the running if I can find one to actually look at, I am starting to realize I want more than a $800 saw but I don't have the budget for a $1800+ mainstream cabinet saw (Unisaw, PM, Jet Exacta, etc). This leaves me with either something like the SC 35905 or, I can't believe I am saying this, a Griz 1023SL.

How is the fit and finish of the SC and the Griz? Are the handwheels tight on the shaft? The Delta hybrid handwheels were reasonably nice in spite of being small.

The nearest SC dealer is about 60 miles from me. They have the smaller hybrid, like the Cman, but not the larger cabinet 35905. I would make the drive to check them out, but if I can expect loose handwheels I won't bother.

Thanks for everyone's patience with all these questions.

EDIT: It was the Cman 22124 (the $1100 one) on the floor at Sears, not the 22114. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[knotscott]

Hi Tom - The handwheels on the shaft are tightened and loosened by a threaded knob to lock them in place. Tightening the knob should eliminate looseness. If you're talking about "lash" from the gears, you pretty much get what you get, although tightness can be smoothed out with lubrication. The SC hybrid uses pretty much the same handwheels as the Cman. The 22114 is the cheaper of the Cman hybrids...the 22124 is the one that's more similar to the SC, although the trunnions are pretty much the same between them. It's very likely the setup and general care of the display was a poor example....that's often the case unless you go to a wwing store like Rockler, Woodcraft, or a local dealer.

A word about the Delta hybrid. It's a nice hybrid IMO with some similarities to the Cman and SC hybrids...they have what looks to me to be the same motor and drive system. Where they differ is fairly significant in design...the Delta has table mounted trunnions vs cabinet mounted trunnions, which are easier to get at and have more mass. The Jet, Griz, Woodtek, GI, and DeWalt hybrids also have table mounted trunnions, but those use the one-piece arbor carriage I mentioned early ....the Delta uses the connecting rods. In actual use, this may make little to no difference at all in a hybrid, but in theory, the Delta combines the two least advantageous designs. The cabinet mounted trunnions combined with the one-piece arbor carriage would be the best of both worlds, but no hybrid offers that....the industrial cabinet saws do. With that said, it should still make a very good hybrid saw that'll serve you well once setup well and equipped with a good blade.

The fit and finish of my Shop Fox saw was better than my CMan saw, but both were acceptable. I'd assume the f&f of the Griz is the same as the SF. Here's a review of my Shop Fox W1677 if you're interested in reading more detail. I know the name Grizzly chafes you a bit, but I think you'll find that the 1023 is very popular and very well liked as being the most bang for buck going. Not to sound like a Griz commercial, but they have steadily been improving their product design and are considered pretty much comparable to other leading machinery imports like Jet, GI, Steel City, the better Cman, and the Delta and PM imports. They do have some bench tools that I don't consider on par, but that's true of many bench tools. The owner of Griz/SF is actually an accomplished woodworker and luthier...he's involved enough that he actually posts on a couple of wwing forums. From time to time he's actually fielded CS issues on forums where the poster had no idea who he was....pretty cool IMO. But on the flip side, I'll also acknowledge the importance of buying what you like and are comfortable with....any of these saws can be setup to do a good job for you.

 

[lucas.j.dunton]

I have the JPS-10 that you are looking at and that is a great price for it. I love mine, it was really easy to set up, and i love the integral router setup i got with mine

 

[42Hickorysouth]

I was using a Delta contractor saw today it was nice that it could be moved to that job site and very moveable. Yet the more I used it the more I was thankful I have a griz at home to work with. I couldn't imagine me ever needing something more. Someone said earlier, buy your second saw first and you will both save money and a lot of time because of the precision with which it performs. I am sure their are other great saws out their for at least close to the amount of money I spent on the griz. I'm sure you could find some used quality saws as well on craigslist or ebay ect. I 'saw' a few good table saws yet couldn't justify spending the much amount of money with no warranty or proof on the reason they were selling the saw. I didn't want someone else's headache if you know what I mean. Good luck.
Darryl

 

[rhds1]

I have to agree with Darryl. Not sure where you live, or if you have your mind set, but if you live within driving distance from Grizzly in Muncy, PA; Bellingham, WA or my favorite, Springfield, MO you should visit their show room. The G1023SL is $975 and the G1023SLX is on sale for $1150 thru the end of this year. I am not affiliated with Grizzly, but if it were not for their quality and great prices I would still be using a 30 year old Cman. I'm lucky (I think) I can run down the road 25 miles and drool all over their show room floor.

 

[tsteahr]

Gentleman,

Excellent advice to buy your second saw first. I live in CT which is unfortunatly a bit to far of a ride to check out a Griz showroom. That woud be great to go to a fully stocked showroom and drive home with your saw. I also tend to agree with the Darryl about not buying the saw off ebay or craigs list. I'll look for a dust collector or some other, less important items used, but the saw I feel better buying new. I'll take the hit. I think I have ruled out the hybrids. I don't ever want to feel like I should have spend a few hundred dollars more. Years from now the extra money won't matter but the quality will always be. I have never regretted buying a little more than I need, but I have often regretted when I have tried to skimp.

So I seem to be at a choice between the SC cabinet or the Griz 1023SL or SLW. The SC is about about $350 more than the Griz but it has a bigger table, a little more rip capacity, and about 50 lbs heavier. The SC also has a riving knife. The Riving knife is a big deal for me. I really wish the griz had a riving knife. With griz it looks like I have to move up to the G0651 which is out of my budget and a larger saw than I need or have room for.

The weekend I will take a drive to look at the smaller SC cabinet saw. If I am ok with the smaller one I think I'll order the full size cab saw. If I don't like what I see I'll order the griz.

 

[tsteahr]

Hi Tom - The handwheels on the shaft are tightened and loosened by a threaded knob to lock them in place. Tightening the knob should eliminate looseness. If you're talking about "lash" from the gears, you pretty much get what you get, although tightness can be smoothed out with lubrication. The SC hybrid uses pretty much the same handwheels as the Cman. The 22114 is the cheaper of the Cman hybrids...the 22124 is the one that's more similar to the SC, although the trunnions are pretty much the same between them. It's very likely the setup and general care of the display was a poor example....that's often the case unless you go to a wwing store like Rockler, Woodcraft, or a local dealer.

A word about the Delta hybrid. It's a nice hybrid IMO with some similarities to the Cman and SC hybrids...they have what looks to me to be the same motor and drive system. Where they differ is fairly significant in design...the Delta has table mounted trunnions vs cabinet mounted trunnions, which are easier to get at and have more mass. The Jet, Griz, Woodtek, GI, and DeWalt hybrids also have table mounted trunnions, but those use the one-piece arbor carriage I mentioned early ....the Delta uses the connecting rods. In actual use, this may make little to no difference at all in a hybrid, but in theory, the Delta combines the two least advantageous designs. The cabinet mounted trunnions combined with the one-piece arbor carriage would be the best of both worlds, but no hybrid offers that....the industrial cabinet saws do. With that said, it should still make a very good hybrid saw that'll serve you well once setup well and equipped with a good blade.

The fit and finish of my Shop Fox saw was better than my CMan saw, but both were acceptable. I'd assume the f&f of the Griz is the same as the SF. Here's a review of my Shop Fox W1677 if you're interested in reading more detail. I know the name Grizzly chafes you a bit, but I think you'll find that the 1023 is very popular and very well liked as being the most bang for buck going. Not to sound like a Griz commercial, but they have steadily been improving their product design and are considered pretty much comparable to other leading machinery imports like Jet, GI, Steel City, the better Cman, and the Delta and PM imports. They do have some bench tools that I don't consider on par, but that's true of many bench tools. The owner of Griz/SF is actually an accomplished woodworker and luthier...he's involved enough that he actually posts on a couple of wwing forums. From time to time he's actually fielded CS issues on forums where the poster had no idea who he was....pretty cool IMO. But on the flip side, I'll also acknowledge the importance of buying what you like and are comfortable with....any of these saws can be setup to do a good job for you.

Knotscott, you and others here have provided extreamly valuable advice. Your SF review is excellent. I enjoyed reading it. Your comments have made me feel comfortable enough with griz to be willing to consider trying it again. I now have no doubt it is a quality product. I also feel better knowing what was wrong with that old contractor griz.

Thanks to all for the help!

 

[knotscott]

Regarding a riving knife...there is a new aftermarket device available for Grizzly 1023/SF, Unisaws, and the SC/CMan hybrids called a bolt on ripping knife (BORK). In effect, it's a riving knife that travels up and down and tilts with the blade. It's still being developed to some degree and is available directly from the inventor. Mine's been installed since August and am glad it's there...it works quite well.

Here are some links to discussions on it, as well as a link to the inventor's website:

familywoodworking.org/bork
taunton.com/FWW/BORK
Woodnet.net/BORK
walnutacrewoodworking.com/Online_Store

If you pursue purchase of a 1023, here's a tidbit that could save you between $75 and $200, depending on the current discount. Microsoft has a promo called "Cashback" for using their Live.com search engine. The discount goes as high as 35%, with a max discount of $200 per transaction...it's currently 8% but is subject to change without notice.

Here's how it works:
You need to originate a search though Live.com, and it needs to result in an Ebay hit that shows the "Live Search Cashback" symbol. It doesn't matter what you search for from Live.com as long as it results in a hit that has that symbol that links you to Ebay. The search words, "Grizzly saw", "chisels", "coins", "coffee", or "Record plane" all work for me just about every time. Then enter Ebay thru the link from your Live.com search. You should see the green "Microsoft" Cashback banner at the top of the page, and it'll show the current discount. Once you've got that banner, that session and the stated discount are valid for one hour....after an hour you can repeat the process to refresh it. Now you can search Ebay for any item you want, (ie: Grizzly table saw) but it must be listed as a "Buy It Now" item, and they must accept PayPal as payment, and you must pay using PP. You'll see the Cashback banner at every step of the checkout process right up to confirming the purchase, so you'll know what your saving. Note that the discount is subject to change without notice. 30% is as high as I've seen it. You're allowed up to 12 cashback transactions per Ebay account...each transaction has a cap of $200. If you don't find the item you want, Grizzly actually has an Ebay team who you can contact...they've been known to list items upon request, but they won't list items that are backordered or in limited supply.

Once you make the Buy It Now purchase, you'll receive an email from the MS Cashback folks stating that you've earned Cashback. It'll provide a link to set up a "Live ID" account with Microsoft. Your cashback will be available after 60 days, at which time you'll get another email with a link where you can request your payment. It typically goes straight to your PayPal account but I've read where others requested a check. You can spend that money as you please, or can transfer it to your bank account.

It'll all look something like this as you step through the process: