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Noise is noise. White noise just cuts out the sensory perception of a more annoying noise. Anyway, it is not his room he is trying to protect. It is the rented rooms and I doubt that renters would want white noise.

George
 

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actually you don't need 2 separate walls, just separation of the two sides. if you were building new, i'd recommend a 2x6 plate and offset 2x4 studs. since you already have a 2x4 wall, rip a pressure treated 2x4 in half and add half the width to the top and bottom plates. then build the 2nd wall with an offset from the original wall. now the insulation will help, as will 2 layers of drywall

 

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actually you don't need 2 separate walls, just separation of the two sides. if you were building new, i'd recommend a 2x6 plate and offset 2x4 studs. since you already have a 2x4 wall, rip a pressure treated 2x4 in half and add half the width to the top and bottom plates. then build the 2nd wall with an offset from the original wall. now the insulation will help, as will 2 layers of drywall

That would have been my suggestion as well providing the OP was intending to replace the entire wall.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
These are rooms that he rents out. White noise would not help.

George
just to clarify... ^^that completely.
I rent out the two rooms that share this wall. The goal is to lessen the amount of noise that they would have to put up with from each other. So white noise is not really applicable in this situation. Now if the individual renter sets some kind of white noise up in there room for themselves, then by all means. But im looking at something to help keep each room from having to hear the other so much.


actually you don't need 2 separate walls, just separation of the two sides. if you were building new, i'd recommend a 2x6 plate and offset 2x4 studs. since you already have a 2x4 wall, rip a pressure treated 2x4 in half and add half the width to the top and bottom plates. then build the 2nd wall with an offset from the original wall. now the insulation will help, as will 2 layers of drywall

I cant verify that it would work, but theoretically, in my mind at least, thats a pretty brilliant idea. Assuming at least that the noise isnt being transferred from the base and top plate. But its an interesting idea for sure.

That being said, no way in hell would i attempt to do that. As you mentioned, interesting idea if it were new construction. But this aint new. And its the main load bearing wall for the center of the house. So i really have no desire to mess around with that structurally. - Tho im glad you shared that. Thats something i probably wouldnt have ever thought of. So it was cool to see.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
If i did make a cheap second wall...

Im assuming there is currently no insulation in the interior wall iv been talking about. I wont know for sure until i get the dry wall off. But if that is the case, Could i jsut make the second wall out of something thinner like a 2x3 (to save space in that tight ass gap i have to work with? If i lined the studs of the new wall up with the studs of the main load bearing wall, then the insulation would have room to expand because it has the 2x4 frame room and the thinner 2x3 new wall room; as well as the gap left between the two walls. Or would the total of the extra space be to big and the insulation fall apart from nothing (drywall) holding it directly up.

Or.. just get unfaced sound insulation and do the original load bearing 2x4 frame. And then build the 2x3 (if i can) or 2x4(if i cant) wall up and leave it uninsulated. And just throw the drywall wall and paneling back up.

Or would there be any real benefit (worth the extra cost) of insulating the original 2x4 frame with the sound insulation. Building another 2x4 wall, and insulating that as well?

Im not looking to go bat **** crazy with it, but i dont want to do anythign that wouldnt really have any effect either.
 

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I cant verify that it would work, but theoretically, in my mind at least, thats a pretty brilliant idea.
Not actually a new idea, that's just how sound deadening walls are built or at least one method.

If you are going to open up one side of the original wall, add another thinner wall and insulate, why would you not offset the studs as shown in the illustration of the sound deadening wall?
 

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mike44
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Leave the existing wall and add another wall in front with sound proof insulation in between. This insulation is known as " rotten cotton" in the trades. Drywall supply houses carry it, do not recall seeing it in box stores.
New wall studs should NOT line up with the studs in the existing wall. Use acoustical caulk top & bottom against the plates. Apply sheet rock with nickel size dots of panel or subfloor adhesive every 12". Install rock with just enough screws to hold it in place til next morning. Remove the screws, metal fasteners transmit sound.
You will have to move electrical boxes first after framing.
Now you can tape ,paint or apply another type of finish like the paneling. It usually is a waste of time and money to save the existing paneling if it is installed with adhesive.
I forgot to mention that rotten cotton will pierce your skin like needles. Wear long sleeve shirt, dust mask, gloves and eye protection. When done , wash the clothes your wearing separately from regular wash.
mike
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Not actually a new idea, that's just how sound deadening walls are built or at least one method.

If you are going to open up one side of the original wall, add another thinner wall and insulate, why would you not offset the studs as shown in the illustration of the sound deadening wall?

If your talking about added a 2x2 (lets say) strip to make the base plate 2x4 of the wall that is already there a 2x6 and then add studs that are staggered.. I assume the studs in the wall are 16c. If i added new studs it would reduce that room. - And i sure aint removing some of the studs that are in there in order to stagger them. Its a load bearing wall, i flat out aint messing with it like that. Either way seems to be an issue.

And i cant do the new wall as a staggered wall like the picture showed because there is not enough room to do it separately. Ill post the pic again, but you can see how close the door is to that wall. The space between the paneling on the wall and the trim of the door is exactly 1.5". So if i decided to alter this or make another wall, everything would have to fit within that space.

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Its also worth reminding that i may not have access to the top plate of the original frame. Ill be able to see for sure when the wall it down. But even if i do i couldnt expand the 2x4 frame because of the ceiling. Its a paper based ceiling that is a few inches below the drywall ceiling. (previous owns put it up). I have no desire to take it down or mess with it.

i know none of this is ideal.. but working around non ideal circumstances seems to be the case for everything i find these days...

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if im misinterperting anything you meant, by all means, let me know.
 

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I guess I must have misunderstood because I thought in your previous reply you were talking about adding a 2X3 second wall. Looks like you have a decision only you can make. Good luck in your project.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I guess I must have misunderstood because I thought in your previous reply you were talking about adding a 2X3 second wall. Looks like you have a decision only you can make. Good luck in your project.
That was one potential option that crossed my mind. A few different ones crossed my mind and i was seeing if any had any validity or potential in working. Of course now that i think about that again.. i realize i was thinking of the wrong side of a 2x3 or 2x4... If i use the same amount of drywall and paneling that is up now, then i only have about 1.5" to work with. I was thinking about a 2x side of that instead of the x3 or x4.. (this is why i dont do important things on no sleep. I always miss something and its always something thats right in front of my face..)

Well that would change the ideas floating around in my head.. as some of them would never fit.

i guess that makes that staggering idea seem more plausible. But i still dont want to mess around with a load bearing wall. Adding something is one thing, but i dont want to take anything down or cut or move what is already there. But if i extended the top and bottom plate out a little bit, then the ceiling would probably be in the way a bit. Im not sure how they have this thing secured up there. And probably wont know until the drywall was down.
But that aside, if i could add an extra 2x1 or 2x2 next to the top and bottom plate, is it a good idea to simply add extra 2x4s in a staggered position? It would interupt the 16c studs. And since its effectivly 'doubling' the studs, would that many contribute to even more noise dispite sound insulation or would the design lessen the noise transfer despite doubling the wood studs?
 

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Has a renter actually complained about noise in the past?

Seems like you are going down the path of time, effort, and cost, will you be able to recover those due to the improvements?

If it were me I would leave it, you aren't renting a 5 star hotel space, it's a nice, clean room, for a fair price I am sure, leave it as it is would be my take.
 

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I cant verify that it would work, but theoretically, in my mind at least, thats a pretty brilliant idea. Assuming at least that the noise isnt being transferred from the base and top plate. But its an interesting idea for sure.

That being said, no way in hell would i attempt to do that. As you mentioned, interesting idea if it were new construction. But this aint new. And its the main load bearing wall for the center of the house. So i really have no desire to mess around with that structurally. - Tho im glad you shared that. Thats something i probably wouldnt have ever thought of. So it was cool to see.
what i posted is a standard way to reduce noise transmission thru a wall. i did this in my first house i built back in 1982, nothing new. the wall i built was between the laundry room and the master bedroom. as far you attempting it... i suggest adding onto the plate of the existing wall and offset the new studs. if that is beyond your abilities, you should not be doing this, you should look for a contractor to do any construction to your house.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
sorry about some of my last few replies. I had the dimensions wrong in my head. (lack of sleep this week). The distance between the wall and the edge of the trim on the door is 1.5". For some.. backwards.. reason, my head was thinking the 1.5" of a 2x4 would fit. Obviously, thinking of the 2 and not the 4. - Ass backwards! This is why i dont do anything important on a lack of sleep. I always miss something overly obvious... so sorry about any confusion i added to this.

So yea.. adding a full new wall on that side would not fit unless i insulated the current wall and made the whole new one out of 1x1's. (honestly, i dont even recall if they make/carry 1x1s in store)

As for adding to the plates and off setting studs.. my question/concern is regarding the shear amount of studs and if that would be any kind of problem.
Im assuming the current load bearing wall has its 2x4 studs 16c. Being a load bearing, im not removing or altering any of them. So if i wanted some off set studs, i would have to add new ones to the current design. So i would take a 16c frame and add even more studs to it. Would that be a problem? Lot more wood, insulation wouldnt fit as well, spec altered etc.

Or would i just start in the middle of the space of the original first two studs and put a new offset stud, and then work down form there at 16c treating the new studs as it they were a separate wall?

Again, forgive my poor paint skills. Trying to illustrate what i mean. It makes sense in my mind when i say it.. doesnt always get interpreted the same way.
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Discussion Starter #34
Has a renter actually complained about noise in the past?

Seems like you are going down the path of time, effort, and cost, will you be able to recover those due to the improvements?

If it were me I would leave it, you aren't renting a 5 star hotel space, it's a nice, clean room, for a fair price I am sure, leave it as it is would be my take.
Have they complained? No. Have i complained (to myself), yes.
I can hear the noise in the bedrooms from the kitchen clear as day half the time. It was something i thought about even before the rooms were ready to rent in the beginning. If i had my way, every bed room in the house would have some form of noise/sound reduction in all the interior walls. - But that aint gonna happen.

I didnt bother doing this whole thing in the beginning because of the way the rooms were built/designed by the last owners. The wall goes below the carpet line as well as above the ceiling line. (they added a second ceiling or paper tile things a few inches below the drywall ceiling.) So taking down the wall would have been a bit of a task.

But now i have to take the carpet up anyway because of the last tenant. So that leaves only the paper ceiling as an obstetrical. Now i would HOPE that i dont have to replace the floor again for a long time. So right now seems like the best opportunity iv had or will have in the near future. Im still not sure i can afford to do it all, but then again, i cant figure that out until i now jsut what it is im actually going to do. So thats why im here, trying to figure out just what i want to do.
 

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In my humble opinion, the "goal" would be a wall construction such as what _Orge previously posted.
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In leu of that, I believe the best alternative would be what is illustrated below; This is looking straight down.
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As I understand it, A 2X2 plate is all there is room for. This means the new added corner studs can only be 2X2 Yes they will be touching the existing corner stud. No way to avoid that I see. ALL the rest of the new added studs are offset and therefore can be 2X4's Using full size 2X4 will retain the rigidity of the new wall surface. Yes the 2X4 studs will sit on both the new and the old plates.

Until one opens up the old wall it is all speculation what one will find he has to deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
In leu of that, I believe the best alternative would be what is illustrated below; This is looking straight down.
View attachment 421412
As I understand it, A 2X2 plate is all there is room for. This means the new added corner studs can only be 2X2 Yes they will be touching the existing corner stud. No way to avoid that I see. ALL the rest of the new added studs are offset and therefore can be 2X4's Using full size 2X4 will retain the rigidity of the new wall surface. Yes the 2X4 studs will sit on both the new and the old plates.

Until one opens up the old wall it is all speculation what one will find he has to deal with.
Yea, thats what i was thinking as well, and trying to articulate (probably poorly). And that even answers my next question about the corner studs. I figured they would have to be there for proper support of the drywall.

Im assuming that if im able to go through with this i should stick to some kind of framing nails? I ask specifically because the only thing i think i have right now are these types of screws left over from when i made the animal room in my basement.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Im assuming that if im able to go through with this i should stick to some kind of framing nails? I ask specifically because the only thing i think i have right now are these types of screws left over from when i made the animal room in my basement.
Well look at that.. I found some old 16d nails. These were probably bought by my dad back in the 90's when he was doing work on the house.

Its not hoarding if you eventually use them! ... even if it takes nearly 30 years.. lol

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where's my table saw?
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If you are going to use nails, be aware that hammering a nail on a 2 x 2 with nothing to back it up and resist the hammer blows will NOT go well. The hammer will bounce off the nail just about every time. A air nailer would work much better. The GRK screws will work just fine as well. They are among the best out there if not, the best. A better way would be to nail or screw all the paneling and drywall laying down flat on the floor which will resist the enertia and then tip the finished wall into position. It will need to be slightly shorter than the space opening to allow for the tipping of the plate on top, however. You can always add an additional plate and drive wedges from both sides to secure it.
I am assuming that the wall in this case is not load bearing? How it's secured is also a question if it's running parallel with the floor joists above? Actually, I think there is too much thinking going on for the amount of noise control that will ultimately be reduced. I would just install 2" foam panels between the studs and be done with it. Even a double layer of 1 1/2" foam would work OK. Even a small air gap that's sealed up will work wonders to stop noise transmission.
 

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If I were doing it I would glue half inch foam insulation to the existing sheetrock then glue another layer of sheetrock over that for a total of about an inch extra thickness using plenty of adhesive. The mass of the sheetrock plus the foam should reduce a lot of the sound and lack of screws should reduce mechanical transmission of the sound.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
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Bump!!



Been a little while, but im back to working on this project.
I took down the trim, panel, carpet tack strip, and the last row of the paperish ceiling tiles.. without destroying any of them'



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Looks like the paperish ceiling tiles were stapled into 1x beams that were nailed into the ceiling. Was able to remove the staples with needle nose pliers and remove them (tongue and grove). Then take out the 1x along the egde in order to be able to remove the wall panels.
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This is a pic from inside the opening to a vent in the wall. You can clearly see two layers of drywall. The other guy staying here said it felt like a much older version before drywall was more popular? He put out a weak punch onto the wall and it didnt even dent it as it likely would with normal drywall. - Granted my experience is still limited with this stuff.
Any idea what type of wall material that is?

Secondly, you can see that the 2x4 wall frame (and the drywall stuff) goes a little bit lower then the wood floor level. If i were to add a 2x2 to make the frame a 2x6 and stagnate the studs, Is it ok to have the 2x2 sitting ontop of the wood floor and nail it to the 2x4. Id have to make little cut outs in the 2x4s to fit putitng them in, or use a 2x1 or something. But id rather not start pulling up the wood floor. Theirs a near perfect chance i will **** that up. - The two layers of wall stick out about 7/8 to 15/16 inches out from the 2x4

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