High Gloss
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That's one you'll have to be specific on. How large of a production run? What sort of spray system? What sort of wood, finish, look desired? What sort of staining or other coloring? What's the end usage and end customer? And a bunch more questions that have to be decided upon before you start finishing.
high gloss
good afternoon
we will start soon
the prodution it will be around 150 pieces by day( table tops, shelfes,sides etc). some pieces have 80m/m high 2000m/m lengh 400m/m width.the spray will be airmix or airless(?)kremlin.
peices are fibreboarb with uv sealer( 2 coats) and 1coat of primer pu, if we need and pu top coat both sides.
how to avoid overspray in the back side without covering all area(back).
coler will be white,black, red
any comments
thanks.:thumbsup:
good afternoon
we will start soon
the prodution it will be around 150 pieces by day( table tops, shelfes,sides etc). some pieces have 80m/m high 2000m/m lengh 400m/m width.the spray will be airmix or airless(?)kremlin.
peices are fibreboarb with uv sealer( 2 coats) and 1coat of primer pu, if we need and pu top coat both sides.
how to avoid overspray in the back side without covering all area(back).
coler will be white,black, red
any comments
thanks.:thumbsup:
For that sort of production you need to talk to a few finish professionals who do production. The ballgame changes dramatically when you move into that sort of numbers as do the materials, the suppliers and the laws.
Myself, I have no experience in this sort of production, our pieces have much more handwork involved than what you will do and our schedules are much too slow. I would probably contact M.L. Campbell, but there's several companies who only deal with production facilities. Try posting this question on The Woodweb under professional finishing.
Myself, I have no experience in this sort of production, our pieces have much more handwork involved than what you will do and our schedules are much too slow. I would probably contact M.L. Campbell, but there's several companies who only deal with production facilities. Try posting this question on The Woodweb under professional finishing.
Considering PK has "no experience in this sort of production" I suggest you ignor him. The materials for finishing are fixed. The suppliers in your area are probably close to being fixed. (and will give you only a better deal as your consumption increases), and the laws at least if we're talking OSHA are also fxed. I've taken an interest in PK as I've seen his posts around this forum since I've joined it (recently) and have been alarmed at his passing out advice in areas where he's clearly not an authority. I don't know what "ballgame" is changing here, but I do know that finishing parts on any scale requires the same attention whether it's one part or five hundred. I don't believe the law in the US treats VOCs based on how many parts are being finished nor should it.
PK likes to write about what he does and offers vague "advice" wothout actually considering what the question was. You probably posted your question in hopes of running into one of those "few finish professionals" he mentioned. I hope you find them. Sorry for taking your time up with my post, but I'm relatively new to the whole "forum thing" and it seems to me that self described "experts" do alot of harm sometimes. I hope you get a post that actually answers your question. -S
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For that kind of quantity I can tell you what I've gone through. First off, you can't do that much in your driveway or backyard for many reasons. You'll have neighbors complaining about overspray and fumes for a half a block, not excluding the numerous cars that will not be completely painted. Next is contaminants that float or drop on the work. Even in a shop setting that is all set up with an appropriate spray booth, you may have complied with fixturing and laws of your state, but there are also local municipalities that can give you more grief than you'll ever need. In addition (at least in Florida) to all that you will need a HAZMAT certification that is posted.
High gloss colors can be done several ways. Lacquer finishes dry fast, but it's difficult to get an "off the gun" gloss that needs no polishing. For small pieces, a suitable substrate sealed, and color sprayed, may need to be wet sanded to very smooth abrading to 1200x to 2000x depending on your buffing and polishing equipment. In the polishing, there are several compounds that range from a very coarse pumice to an ultra smooth paste/liquid that leaves no marks. This works if you have the time and are willing to go through several steps to a finish.
Or, you can use a straight automotive paint in a color. It works best with a smooth substrate that has been primed with an epoxy based primer, some have adhesion promoters. You can get a very good "off the gun finish", but laying out a coat without any orange peal or runs is very difficult. If that finish is wet sanded and buffed, that finish will appear totally different than the "off the gun" coat. So, you can't rub out one section and have it look like the rest, it all would have to be rubbed out.
One of the quickest finishes would be an automotive base coat, clear coat. With that, you still should prime/seal the substrate. Your color coat doesn't have to be perfect. The clear coat can be applied that may or may not need any sanding or buffing. That would depend on how good you are and the equipment you are using.
The color polyurethanes can be very pricey, but some can give very good "off the gun" finishes. There are many types of applications that are catalyzed that offer a faster dry time, but ideal conditions and technique are key to good finishing.
As for equipment, a large enough air delivery system that gives fairly cool dry air to the gun will produce a much better finish than one with questionable filtering and moisture extraction. I posted this thread about blushing and air system problems, that may be of some help.
For spray guns, almost any material can be sprayed from an ordinary syphon cup type. That's all I used before HVLP became available. You can get very good finishes with them. An HVLP will reduce the amount of material used and provide a much better transfer efficiency with very little overspray.
To answer your question on reducing overspray on the backs, I try to hang the piece from an unseen edge so I can spray the whole piece at once. For example, upper cabinet doors I would hang from a small eye hook in the top of the door, and likewise the base doors would be hung from the bottom. Or they can be hung from one of the screw holes if you have prehung the door or have already set it up for hinges. But in figuring other pieces, the layout time and finishing of one side at a time uses up space and is very time consuming. For flat stuff, I may lay them on a table on top of some spacers to just get the top surface or the top surface and the edges.
Very large production of finished pieces are usually done by an electrostatic process, where they are charged electrically and passed through an atomized booth and the surface collects just the right amount of finish.
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70 Posts
If I may interject...
It sounds like you are using a hybrid system of UV cureable filler or sealer and polyurethane finish. Not common yet I see more shops moving in this direction for, if no other reason, time savings. If it is this type of hybrid system that you are planning on spraying, I suggest you contact those manufacturers of this technology. Since I work for one of them, obviously I would like you to talk to us, but in the interest of a fair and balanced forum, here are a couple of good competitors also:
www.geminicoatings.com
www.valspar.com
www.beckeracroma.com
It is important that you let them know that you are working with UV curable and polyurethane, so they get you to the right people. This is still an emerging technology and these guys' primary business is post catalyzed varnishes.
Good luck!!
It sounds like you are using a hybrid system of UV cureable filler or sealer and polyurethane finish. Not common yet I see more shops moving in this direction for, if no other reason, time savings. If it is this type of hybrid system that you are planning on spraying, I suggest you contact those manufacturers of this technology. Since I work for one of them, obviously I would like you to talk to us, but in the interest of a fair and balanced forum, here are a couple of good competitors also:
www.geminicoatings.com
www.valspar.com
www.beckeracroma.com
It is important that you let them know that you are working with UV curable and polyurethane, so they get you to the right people. This is still an emerging technology and these guys' primary business is post catalyzed varnishes.
Good luck!!
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65 Posts
big orange, pk, (they won 4ot), missouri won too!
Don't let it slow you down, most just read and never post. Just ignore, and yes, that is how you really spell it, any negative comment. You don't have to be an expert to post your opinion or how you would do it. I look at this forum as a casual setting, like you would find at your local bar. Your going to have some real experts, some not, and some who just want to talk the talk. Call it what you want, but I like to hear from those who are motivated in the wood working area. Those who are excited to talk the talk. Those who aren't afraid if they are wrong in what they say. Who cares anyway. Just a bunch of guys getting along, making conversation. We don't need bouncers here. We can all have a laugh from time to time. I'll buy the next round! May all have a drink on me. harddog
Don't let it slow you down, most just read and never post. Just ignore, and yes, that is how you really spell it, any negative comment. You don't have to be an expert to post your opinion or how you would do it. I look at this forum as a casual setting, like you would find at your local bar. Your going to have some real experts, some not, and some who just want to talk the talk. Call it what you want, but I like to hear from those who are motivated in the wood working area. Those who are excited to talk the talk. Those who aren't afraid if they are wrong in what they say. Who cares anyway. Just a bunch of guys getting along, making conversation. We don't need bouncers here. We can all have a laugh from time to time. I'll buy the next round! May all have a drink on me. harddog
If I want high gloss I still think lacquer is the easiest.
But you have to sand and buff it for the best finish.
Next best is to sand it and flow coat,
(that's just another wet coat)
if you don't want to buff.
Next best for me is a auto urethane, also sand and buff.
It's the toughest, clearest, and most expensive.
You'll just have to try some ways and see what level of finish
is worthwhile for you.
As far as professionals, remember,
professionals built the Titanic, a novice built the Ark:thumbsup:
But you have to sand and buff it for the best finish.
Next best is to sand it and flow coat,
(that's just another wet coat)
if you don't want to buff.
Next best for me is a auto urethane, also sand and buff.
It's the toughest, clearest, and most expensive.
You'll just have to try some ways and see what level of finish
is worthwhile for you.
As far as professionals, remember,
professionals built the Titanic, a novice built the Ark:thumbsup:
i would like to thanks about yours comments.
the way we will use uv filler it is because we have a good uv line ( is quickly and easier ) of course we are sanding between coats.
if we need we will use polyuretane primmer sand it all (edges and faces) with fine sandpapers in automatic sand machine and by hand in last sanding.
we will paint the polyuretane top coat (lacquer white, black red) by hand in cabine with temperature, moisture controled and dust free.
the big probleme for us is to avoid overspray in the back side without covering all area(back). it is not possible to hang the picies we have to paint in the flat way. i talked with some profissional but the problem still there. the spray gun is an hvlp (airmix MVX) KREMLIN AND FLOWMAX PUMP.
WHAT DO YOU THINK
THANK YOU FOR TAKING YOUR TIME:thumbsup:
(SORRY MY INGLISH)
the way we will use uv filler it is because we have a good uv line ( is quickly and easier ) of course we are sanding between coats.
if we need we will use polyuretane primmer sand it all (edges and faces) with fine sandpapers in automatic sand machine and by hand in last sanding.
we will paint the polyuretane top coat (lacquer white, black red) by hand in cabine with temperature, moisture controled and dust free.
the big probleme for us is to avoid overspray in the back side without covering all area(back). it is not possible to hang the picies we have to paint in the flat way. i talked with some profissional but the problem still there. the spray gun is an hvlp (airmix MVX) KREMLIN AND FLOWMAX PUMP.
WHAT DO YOU THINK
THANK YOU FOR TAKING YOUR TIME:thumbsup:
(SORRY MY INGLISH)
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