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I'm not sure what OSHA or Insurance requires but my point is this. If it is required to have the safety devices on the equipment why shouldn't they be on there. It's not fair to other companies that spend the money and follow the law if a few companies refuse to do it. It's also not fair to the employees. To say it's common practice may be true for home and or fly by night shops but that don't make it right.

As for how long it takes to swap the safety devices. You must have a older saw because most saws today have the quick change devices. Mine does and they change in 20-30 seconds.

As I said if it's required then any boss worth working for will follow the rules. Those who don't should not be in buisness.

With all do respect I don't think you know what you are talking about. Most "real" shops, not fly by nighters don't use it. They keep it close to the saws in case OSHA shows up but they don't use them. I have worked in high end, low end and super high end shops with annual sales from $150,000 - millions!
The shop I work for has 4 saw stops so they are safety minded.
As for the "if it is required any boss worth working for will follow the rules" comment obviously shows that you don't know what OSHA requires!! It is not even possible to stay in line with all of OSHA's laws!!

I have a brand new Bosch job site saw it swaps out really fast, I just don't like having to change it every time I switch operations, which is about every other cut.
I am VERY safe but I don't like the blade guards!! I use push sticks exclusivley!!
 

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Freehanding on a table saw is already unsafe and is the same action that was being performed when the guy cut his hand then sued.

As for as it's up to the person behind the saw statement. Everyone talks that way and acts like it won't happen to them. They make it sound like those of us that were unfortunately injured are some how less safe then they are. That's until it happens to them then the big bad talk stops.

Your free to do what ever you want but if it happens to you then you may get what I'm saying. Hopefully not but you know the risk.

If you want some extra safety pictures check out my album. :thumbsup:
My statements aren't to act as though I'm so good at working on a table saw that it will never happen to me. I know full well that it just may very well happen to me tomorrow! I do not play around while working with my saws. I consider myself a profesional and treat my tools with mega respect. I won't push anything under 6 inches wide past the blade without a push stick, I see most guys push a 1 1/2" strip with their fingers!!
My point is that if I feel something is unsafe I'm not going to do it. I don't feel that working on a table saw without a bladeguard is unsafe. I have used the guards and I don't like them at all!!
I have rules that I follow while using it, set the blade hight just above the wood, don't put my hands or arms over the blade, never move my hands from the table unless I'm watching where they are moving to, always use push sticks and glasses.. I don't feel that freehanding on a table saw is unsafe.
6 months ago the finish carpenter cut 2 fingers off because he broke 2 of those rules. He didn't set his blade low and he looked at the next piece of wood he was about to grab. As he reached for it with his right hand he brushed his left hand onto the blade. Blade guard would have saved him also, then again using a circular saw to make his cuts would have also worked!

As for free handing on a table saw, how do you suggest scribing 1" fillers?
 

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Charley I'm sure you have a lot of hours on the table saw from the sounds of it. I just wonder of there is a "pucker factor" when you are freehanding on the table saw? On the very few occasions when I found it necessary there sure was for me.

For the operation you mentioned, trimming to a scribe line, wouldn't a circular saw be a whole lot easier and much safer?

You may have a smaller, less powerful saw on a job site than a cabinet saw with 3 HP or more, I donno? Your blade may have an aggressive set to the teeth leaving a wider kerf, I donno? It sounds like you are trimming face face frames which are long and narrow, I donno? But if you can figure out a safer way I would recommend it. The laws of physics are not suspended for even experienced cabinetmakers. Wood moves, pinches on the blade, a piece can twist in the kerf in a moment of inattention, and you'll get a "return to sender notification" in the form of a kickback.

No one can tell you how to run your saw or your shop, so how you do your work is your choice. I didn't use a splitter for years, then I started paying attention to why I got kickbacks and feel much safer now. You're right that you can't do all the operations when it's on there, and mine takes 5 minutes to reinstall it if I remove it on my older Craftsman 12" motorized saw, so I leave it on that saw. I have a newer Craftsman hybrid saw that has a riving knife that takes only seconds to remove and reinstall. What a difference and it's a dream to use.

Below is an example of a "pucker factor" operation on the hybrid saw where I need to thin up a section on some very short lengths of walnut for a keepsake box. My shop, my rules, and my fingers..... if anything goes wrong. I used a push block and supported the outside edge of the work on another larger block that went along for the ride since they were taped together. It did go very smoothly, but there was till a chance of a kickback.

Smaller pieces are always a challenge...for me at least, like the 4 sided beveled feet on the same box. I used a bandsaw with a stop block for the final 2 bevels and then sanded them smooth on a disc sander.

Nope, never a pucker factor!! If I have a pucker factor I won't make the cut, I know that pucker means if this doesn't go perfect I'm going to get hurt and I don't like getting hurt.

If I'm cutting a wide panel I use a circular saw, if it is a narrow filler I use the table saw. I would never free hand a wide board on a cabinet saw, to much power. I do use a riving knife and that is because I don't have a reason not to use it. I'm not some ego maniac cowboy who thinks I'm so good it will never happen to me, I just am not sold on blade guards! Pretty much every jobsite I work along side other carpenters and watching them use the table saw scares me, I'm always the safest.
As for your little pucker job, I'm not even sure I would have tried that I may have done it but I would have had a face shield on for sure!!
 

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on second thought!

Woodnthings, after looking at your pics again I know I wouldn't have done that. you are pinching the blade with your board!

I would have left those corners long and the after cutting then on the table saw I would have chopped them to length. Don't know if that would have been feasible for you at the time, looks like maybe you had little scraps left over to make that box, that is what I do with scraps!
 

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So how do you handle the kickback potential caused by a piece of reaction wood that closes solidly on the back of the blade, if you don't have some kind of splitter installed?



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Feel it happening and pull the piece out, then let it pinch closed and start your cut again. I use a splitter though.
 

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With all do respect I don't think you know what you are talking about. Most "real" shops, not fly by nighters don't use it. They keep it close to the saws in case OSHA shows up but they don't use them. I have worked in high end, low end and super high end shops with annual sales from $150,000 - millions!
The shop I work for has 4 saw stops so they are safety minded.
As for the "if it is required any boss worth working for will follow the rules" comment obviously shows that you don't know what OSHA requires!! It is not even possible to stay in line with all of OSHA's laws!!

I have a brand new Bosch job site saw it swaps out really fast, I just don't like having to change it every time I switch operations, which is about every other cut.
I am VERY safe but I don't like the blade guards!! I use push sticks exclusivley!!
Well with all do respect your 29, so 10-15 years at most experience. You free hand cuts on a table saw, don't like blade guards and you say your safe especially compared to others you see. So what your telling me is your the safest of the unsafe.

Sure I don't know OSHA rules because I don't work in a commercial shop. I said as much but I did and I have about 30+ years experience in woodworking, construction, Marine Combat Engineer, You want safety try the military especially dealing with explosives. All safety requirements are able to be followed if you make an effort.

As for most shops don't do it. I'm sure they have people everywhere that think like you do. As I said i did to until I lost a finger. It don't make it right. Not using safety equipment will always be faster but it's not safe and not correct.

This may be exaggerated but it's true. It only takes something unexpected to cause the accident. Even if you can control everything you do something can still happen. A co-worker can cause a distraction or a bus can fall out the sky and cause you to jump throwing your hand into the blade.

I had a jackass jump in to help me and cause me to catch on fire then he stood there and did nothing. I didn't ask for the help nor did I expect it.

I can see i would do better talking to a wall because your already convinced you know best. All I can say is good luck to you and I hope you never find out how wrong you are. :thumbsup:
 

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I was just ripping out a 15" wide piece of 1/4" ply and BANG! fortunately the only damage was a bruised bone in my pointer finger which was hit and its already better but here comes my real reason for this post.
Your fortunate that you weren't injured much worse. IMO, ¼" plywood is a top candidate for kickback. Why you ask? Well, it's not flat, and it's light. It takes an effort to hold it down flat to the table, while guiding it along the fence. It can have the tendency to flutter when being cut. On cuts requiring changing hands, or taking a step or two, the sheet can get somewhat unattended.

An assessment of the cut should be made as to whether hold downs, or feather boards should be used. And of course, if the safety devices are in place, minimizes problems.





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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Sure your brain is your best defense from accidents but we make mistakes at that's why we need the safety gear in place. Older saws were difficult and a PITA. However newer saws can have splitter, guards and riving knives switched in seconds. I'm tired of hearing that safety devices are never used and it's up to you to be safe. The reason they are not used is because of ignorance and stupidity most of the time. Hell if the owner lost a finger and the other guy lost 3 fingers, then it's plain old stupidity topped off with being irresponsible that the safety devices are not being used.

Use your brain as others said and don't use the saw without the safety equipment. Your gut telling you something is unsafe for a reason.
Thanks rrbrown you nailed it. I mean yeah, I know the kickback was my fault but hey I'm only human just like all of us, I'm far from perfect and just because I watch myself doesn't mean I can stop them all, were there safety gear my mistake may have been forgiven, that's all I mean to say. Also I'm glad someone agrees with me on how insane it is that no changes were made after such major accidents in the past. Lastly regards to the posts about thin material, I've heard that plenty of times and yes, this particular piece was moderately bowed.
 

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Well with all do respect your 29, so 10-15 years at most experience. You free hand cuts on a table saw, don't like blade guards and you say your safe especially compared to others you see. So what your telling me is your the safest of the unsafe.

Sure I don't know OSHA rules because I don't work in a commercial shop. I said as much but I did and I have about 30+ years experience in woodworking, construction, Marine Combat Engineer, You want safety try the military especially dealing with explosives. All safety requirements are able to be followed if you make an effort.

As for most shops don't do it. I'm sure they have people everywhere that think like you do. As I said i did to until I lost a finger. It don't make it right. Not using safety equipment will always be faster but it's not safe and not correct.

This may be exaggerated but it's true. It only takes something unexpected to cause the accident. Even if you can control everything you do something can still happen. A co-worker can cause a distraction or a bus can fall out the sky and cause you to jump throwing your hand into the blade.

I had a jackass jump in to help me and cause me to catch on fire then he stood there and did nothing. I didn't ask for the help nor did I expect it.

I can see i would do better talking to a wall because your already convinced you know best. All I can say is good luck to you and I hope you never find out how wrong you are. :thumbsup:
I think that you are right about it being safer, I have even said that. I also don't want to come across like I know everything and am never wrong. I am not advocating not using safety gear. My point to my posts were only to let artasian know that no matter what the situation he is in always do only what you are comfortable with period. My point was to show that most places he is going to work for are not going to use the safety devices and so he needs to learn to trust himself and instead of demanding that they use the gear instead just tell them look I don't feel comfortable using it without the gear. Maybe I am wrong and in his area he can find a shop that is dedicated to safety, I hope he can.

The reason I consider myself safe is because I trust my gut, and no I don't see a problem free handing certain cuts, like I said, how do you suggest cutting a 1" filler? I guess I could belt sand the half inch that I need to take off but in a realistic world that is just not feasible.
Even with safety gear attached a table saw is anything but safe, so no matter what we are taking a risk every time we turn them on!

You do have me beat on the years of experience and I'm sure you could teach me a bunch. I started making bird houses and selling them to neighbors at 6 and never looked back, so you do have more time behind the blade but if we consider that I work about a 70-80 hour work week we may be closer than you think.

Like I first said, the guys that don't do woodworking as a profession usually have a different view of it. I'm sure that many shops use the safety gear, my point is that is surely isn't the norm!! That doesn't make it right, but it sure does make it the reality if you are going to decide to make a living in this field!!
 

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I think that you are right about it being safer, I have even said that. I also don't want to come across like I know everything and am never wrong. That is how you come across. I am not advocating not using safety gear. Telling people to get used to not having it if they're going to be in this field is exactly that. My point to my posts were only to let artasian know that no matter what the situation he is in always do only what you are comfortable with period. My point was to show that most places he is going to work for are not going to use the safety devices That's absurd. The few places you have worked may not have used such devices, but assuming that most places don't use them is just insane. You don't know that, and can't argue that you do. and so he needs to learn to trust himself and instead of demanding that they use the gear instead just tell them look I don't feel comfortable using it without the gear. Maybe I am wrong and in his area he can find a shop that is dedicated to safety, I hope he can.

The reason I consider myself safe is because I trust my gut, and no I don't see a problem free handing certain cuts, like I said, how do you suggest cutting a 1" filler? I guess I could belt sand the half inch that I need to take off but in a realistic world that is just not feasible.
Even with safety gear attached a table saw is anything but safe, so no matter what we are taking a risk every time we turn them on! Yes, you are. That doesn't mean you should ignore simple items that don't hinder your performance but can save your life in the unlikely even that you, or someone around you, messes up. Safety gear isn't about making you unable to hurt yourself, it's about acknowledging the danger and minimizing the likelyhood of injuring yourself and the severity that you would be injured, should it happen.

You do have me beat on the years of experience and I'm sure you could teach me a bunch. I started making bird houses and selling them to neighbors at 6 and never looked back, so you do have more time behind the blade but if we consider that I work about a 70-80 hour work week we may be closer than you think. Time you've been doing something doesn't mean you have the knowledge of how to do it safely. The guy with more time behind the blade doesn't necessarily know more about it than the guy just starting.

Like I first said, the guys that don't do woodworking as a profession usually have a different view of it. I'm sure that many shops use the safety gear, my point is that is surely isn't the norm!! Again, you have absolutely no way of knowing this. Besides, all shops use safety gear, even if you don't know it. Safety gear is everywhere and you see it all day long. You may not know that you're looking at it. That doesn't make it right, but it sure does make it the reality if you are going to decide to make a living in this field!! No it doesn't. It's just what you've experienced in your career.
The bold is mine, obviously.
 

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Itchytoe said:
You do have me beat on the years of experience and I'm sure you could teach me a bunch. I started making bird houses and selling them to neighbors at 6 and never looked back, so you do have more time behind the blade but if we consider that I work about a 70-80 hour work week we may be closer than you think. Time you've been doing something doesn't mean you have the knowledge of how to do it safely. The guy with more time behind the blade doesn't necessarily know more about it than the guy just starting.

The bold is mine, obviously.
don't know if the bold comes out from my iPad. Be that as it may, there are many a driver who claim a lifetime of no accidents - the underlying question ... how many have they caused. I saw an older driver I personally new turn from one main road to another. As he 'turned left anytime with care' (Australia - we drive on the left) he travelled across all three lanes and back to the centre. What happened behind was what you expect of precision driving as everyone ducked and weaved so to speak so as to avoid a major pile-up.

Some interesting points being made here, I see both sides and agree with some of each. Hope this does not become an attack on each other.

Dave The Turning Cowboy
 

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Itchytoe,
I didn't tell anyone to get used to not using blade guards, read my post again! I stated a fact, most places don't use them, I'm not telling him to get used to not using th guards I'm just being honest about the situation. Yes I can argue that point, companies have done research on this and the study I read said 98% of jobsite carpenters don't use it! I read this years ago when the sawstop was just coming out and it may have changed a little but from every jobsite I pass while driving around I have yet to see a single blade guard in action!
Go buy trim from a mill, go take a tour of a cabinet shop, or any woodworking shop, go just take the time to look around the warehouse of your local molding mill or lumber yard and I'll bet you find the same thing MOST of them don't have blade guards on.
I think I know what a safety device is when I see it and I never said I don't use any kind of safety devices. I already stated that I use push sticks and a riving knife.
If you think most places use blade guards you just don't know what you are talking about, maybe try going and looking up the facts before you accuse me of being absurd and insane.
I am not just going off my own experiences but also off of government studies and company studies, heck even the other post about who uses blade guards shows that 77 percent of this forum doesn't use them!!
So like I said, it may not make it the right thing to do but MOST people and businesses don't use them!!

I don't ignore simple devices that don't hinder my performance, riving knife, push sticks, hold downs, feather boards, eye glasses, ear plugs, etc. Blade guards do hinder my performance, so I chose not to use them, I may end up regreting that but I never suggested that anyone else not use them. I simply am giving a reality check about the woodworking industry!!

So Itchy, have you experienced something different? have the shops you've worked at and the lumber suppliers you buy from use the blade guards and prawls?
 

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You may have seen my thread, '$100 kitchen'

When my mate pulled out his baby table saw my first thought was of this thread. I must say I felt a little nervous using it, not due to my ability bit because of others that were round about while I used it. His saw had no guard, no riving knife and the fence was on the wrong side. Guess I could have fixed the fence but nothing to be done by the rest.

Yes I felt comfortable and confident using it. I cut thin materials, free hand scribing fillets and regular style ripping. Nothing went wrong but I sure hope he throws it and gets one with the safety gear.

Dave The Turning Cowboy
 

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Itchytoe,
I didn't tell anyone to get used to not using blade guards, read my post again! I stated a fact, most places don't use them, I'm not telling him to get used to not using th guards I'm just being honest about the situation. Yes I can argue that point, companies have done research on this and the study I read said 98% of jobsite carpenters don't use it! I read this years ago when the sawstop was just coming out and it may have changed a little but from every jobsite I pass while driving around I have yet to see a single blade guard in action!
Go buy trim from a mill, go take a tour of a cabinet shop, or any woodworking shop, go just take the time to look around the warehouse of your local molding mill or lumber yard and I'll bet you find the same thing MOST of them don't have blade guards on.
I think I know what a safety device is when I see it and I never said I don't use any kind of safety devices. I already stated that I use push sticks and a riving knife.
If you think most places use blade guards you just don't know what you are talking about, maybe try going and looking up the facts before you accuse me of being absurd and insane.
I am not just going off my own experiences but also off of government studies and company studies, heck even the other post about who uses blade guards shows that 77 percent of this forum doesn't use them!!
So like I said, it may not make it the right thing to do but MOST people and businesses don't use them!!

I don't ignore simple devices that don't hinder my performance, riving knife, push sticks, hold downs, feather boards, eye glasses, ear plugs, etc. Blade guards do hinder my performance, so I chose not to use them, I may end up regreting that but I never suggested that anyone else not use them. I simply am giving a reality check about the woodworking industry!!

So Itchy, have you experienced something different? have the shops you've worked at and the lumber suppliers you buy from use the blade guards and prawls?
There are several people telling you that your doing unsafe things and that you are coming off as a know it all. many of which have more experience then what you have been alive or very close to it. Yet you stick to your version of what's correct.

Like I said, be safe and good luck because your going to need it.
 

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There are several people telling you that your doing unsafe things and that you are coming off as a know it all. many of which have more experience then what you have been alive or very close to it. Yet you stick to your version of what's correct.

Like I said, be safe and good luck because your going to need it.

I am sorry that I have come across that way, it was not my intention. I will agree with you that you guys have much more experience than I do and you very well may be right about what you are saying. I will admit also that I "should" keep a blade guard on unless I absolutely have to take it off for a cut but I sacrifice safety for usability. Now go take that darn ring off your finger before you lose it :thumbsup:
 

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I always say the TS is the most dangerous tool in the shop. What we do at home in our personal time is our business. But an employer has a legal obligation to protect his employees. True, guards have to come off for certain reasons but as an employer you must be able to prove you excersise "due dilegence" to have the guards, use the guards, train how to use the guards, inspect the process, and if there are certain processes that just can't be done with the guard you have to prove you train to that end.

What I do at home in my time is my responsibility. What my staff do at work on company time is also my responsibility.
 
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