[mdeiley]

Hi all,
Just a question regarding sprayer type finishers. Do most use HVLP or airless. My needs are basic. I want the most veriaty with the least clean up. I am looking for multi purpose (any type finish or stains) This is to be used 3 to 4 times a year. I am asking all those that use sprayers to give me the pros and cons to each. I thank you in advance for your replys.

 

[cabinetman]

If you have a compressor you could use either an HVLP or syphon/pressure feed gun. Or buy a self contained HVLP system that has its own turbine type compressor. I wouldn't use an airless.

I rarely spray a stain, so most of my spraying is topcoat. Stains are usually wiped or brushed on. If you are looking for the simplest and easiest to use and clean up, the self contained HVLP, and spray water based polyurethane as a topcoat.

 

[Grandpa Sawdust]

I am also looking at HVLP options for topcaoat. I use wipe on dye (never stain) for color.

Does anyone have a comment on the Wager Fine Spray or Fine Coat system??

 

[toolsman]

I'm still experimenting. Been experimenting for almost a year now. Couple of things I learned. HVLP uses lots of air. You need a good compressor and at least 3/8" hoses and couplers. Watch out for 1/4" couplers as they reduce the volume of air to the gun. I also found out that you need high pressure (usually over 30psi) to the gun. They are called conversion guns because the baffles inside convert the high pressure to high volume at a lower pressure at the tip. I've been using a Sharpe Cobalt gravity feed with a 1.2mm tip. Tip is too small. I'm spraying Magnalac precatylized lacquer. It needs 1.4 or 1.5. Got a tip from JCClark on this website, he knows his stuff, to look at the Astro HVLP 2 gun package available from Tool Paradise. He has them and says they spray as good as his expensive guns. I ordered them and am anxiously awaiting delivery.
I also have another friend who bought a cheap self contained turbine type package from Harbor Freight for $69 and he is happy with the results from it. It has it's own little compressor or turbine that pushes a large volume of air at low pressure through a 3/4" hose to a suction gun. I tried it and it works well but since I started with the conversion gun system I'm determined to continue to experiment till I get the results I want. I've already invested money in the compressor and large hoses and couplers. The all in one type with a 3 or 4 stage turbine that sell for over $800 work great, says a pro friend of mine but pretty pricey for just a few times a year. I have another friend with a Binks pot HVLP system. He gets great results and you should see his work!!
My point is - there are lots of ways to apply finish. Find the system that you think will work for you and experiment till you get the results you want.
Wow, T.M.I??

 

[JCCLARK]

Well said Toolsman, and thanks for the kind words.
I would like to add how important it is to know what air
requirements your gun choice needs. You probably want to make your
choice by how much air your compressor delivers.
Most compressors mfg's stretch on their output cfm specs and most
spray guns spray better by upping the psi, which takes more cfm.
So give yourself a little room for air requirements and supply.
You also don't want to be so closely matched that your compressor
runs most of the time, that builds heat and creates a lot of
moisture problems.
The HVLP's do require a lot of air, usually around 10 cfm.
Some much higher.
But a conventionl gun can use a lot less and spray really well,\
sometimes better.
I find the HVLP's need the psi they suggest, sometimes more, but
the conventional guns can spray at a lot less psi and still give a
good finish, meaning a lot less CFM.
Here's one I've sprayed lacquer with unbelievably well.

http://www.spraygunworld.com/products/Astro/Astro Pneumatic - APAS7SP.htm

Spraying at 30 to 35 psi this gun uses less than 4 cfm, it's a great
choice for a small compressor.
I sprayed some pretty slick cars with this gun and a
3/4 hp compressor.:thumbsup:

 

[mdeiley]

Thanks for the input all. I have spoke with some People in the painting business (house painters not furniture finishers) And they highly recommend the airless. It does seam most here use HVLP. The painters informed me that using the HVLP requires thinning material which in some cases is not reccomended by the finish supplier? Any thoughts? They also said clean up is quite easy with the airless but you do have a little more material waste. Again I want to make one investment and get what will last me forever. Not many jobs maybe a couple a year. But I also have a very large deck (15'x60') that needs redoing every other year. I would like something that is dual purpose. If that is not a good idea then I would consider both. I anxiously await replys. You guys have a great deal of knowledge that is much appreciated.

 

[TexasTimbers]

I have been using HVLP lately both gravity feed and suction cup. they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I am not a pro yet obviously so just my limited experience thus far.

Gravity does not put out the volume that suction does and so is slower. Suction however has alot mor overspray. Both have the same size cup (quart) but the gravity feed is less tiring to use. The suction is more convenient to sit down between sprays. Just unplug the hose and it stands on its own. You have to hang the gravity feed from a ladder brace or something. It wont hang from a rung on a step ladder at least mine.
A cup feed will spray at a wider degree of tilt and angle especially when the liquid gets lower in the cup. That doesn't make sense when you thk about it but this has been my experience.

Over all I am glad I have both. they both fill a niche. If you are going to spray a big job like siding or something more than a couple hours then you would want an airless.

Take thses opinions for what they are - from someone whoi is a beginner at HVLP.

 

[JCCLARK]

You won't have to thin with a HVLP if you're spraying stains,
(like the kind for furniture)
and very little if at all when spraying finishes like lacquer and poly's.
The amount is controlled by the tip size, I typically use a
1.5mm for lacquers and car paint.
I have up to 2.2mm for thick primers and flakes.
My touch-up mini gun is a 1.0mm
They can go bigger or smaller, depending on what you're spraying.

For a really thick paint like house latex, the airless is the way to go.
But for finishing furniture, then the HVLP works best.:icon_cool:

 

[Corndog]

I do guitars with nitro rattle cans.....'spose that doesn't help much,huh?
Oh well, at least I tried.:yes:

 

[neohguy]

I have spoke with some People in the painting business (house painters not furniture finishers) And they highly recommend the airless. It does seam most here use HVLP. The painters informed me that using the HVLP requires thinning material which in some cases is not reccomended by the finish supplier? Any thoughts?


The application is very different. House painters require a sprayer that will pump large volumes (5 gallon buckets) of thick, unthinned latex/oil house paint. The only way to go for them is the airless "paint pump". They will use HVLP, high pressure or turbine sprayers, but only for things like shooting thinned oil paint on entry doors, etc. Hope that helps...

 

[Denny J]

I have been through several different spray setups in my cabinetry business in the last decade and to me the most important thing to consider is what you are going to spray and how much.

For spraying clears I use an air assisted airless sprayer. For volume production and efficiency they can't be touched, but they cost about 2000 dollars so they aren't in everybody's budget.

For tinted lacquers and tinted waterbased finishes I use a standard airless setup. If I did more of it I would buy another air assisted, but can't justify the expense with the volume I do.

I bought a top of the line HVLP turbine setup for about a grand seven or eight years ago and I consider it a mistake. I gave it to my brother who paints race cars with it now. IMHO they are too expensive for what you get.


I also have a few dozen gravity guns from Grizzly and Harbor Freight and have to say these guns do a great job for the price. You can get them for anywhere from 15-25 dollars each and they will lay down a coat that you cannot tell the difference from compared to the 400 dollar asturo legend gun I have that never gets used any more.

Since I get alot of calls for one off specialty colores I buy these guns and they work great for spraying stains, toners and clears and the ones with a 2.0 tip work great for primers.


If I were to pick one setup to use in a non production environment I would buy some of the gravity guns from Harbor freight or Grizzly (Same guns,different colors), A pressure pot from them also if you are going to get into a few bigger jobs and then I would buy the biggest compressor you can afford.

 

[PK.]

I have a couple of the low volume-low pressure, (lvlp) gravity guns from Grizzly and was suprised how well they spray. I've always used Binks guns on an air compressor.

Whenever I move into my new shop I'll be buying a Kremlin AAA set-up, but that's way overkill for an occasional user. I think you can do excellent finishes using air compressors and gravity guns and do it without spending more than $500.

I've only sprayed stains a few times but I think for that particular use, buy a cheapo gun. Buy a good gun for your final finishes.

 

[Denny J]

PK

Have you looked at the Cougar AAA? It is less money than the Kremlin and the company has great customer service and support as well as quick replacement parts.

I personally have an Asturo K20 AAA and have been less than happy with it. I did replace the gun recently with a Cougar Bobcat gun and it is a very good gun. The design prevents the tip clogging that is far too common with the Asturo and Kremlin guns.

 

[PK.]

Denny, I have looked at them at the Spraygun World website and have read several favorable things about their systems and it looks like a good deal to me. The reason I'm going with the Kremlin is because my local M.L Campbell supplier carries Kremlin. There was another system that someone showed me last spring, I think it was the Altendorf rep, I believe it's Italian but I can't recall the name. It seemed very nice and was recommended by another local shop. I've thought about going to see a demo of the thing.

I'm suprised to hear you're not happy with the Asturo. That was another system that came highly recommended. Was the gun the main complaint or is there more you don't like?

 

[Denny J]

I think I got either the first one or one of the first ones to come off the ship from Italy. When I got it there were no English instructions and it leaked out the bottom of the pump. After a call to the Pennsylvania headquarters I was instructed to disassemble the pump where I found one of the seals with a metal reinforcing spring had unraveled in the pump against the rod and ruined the seal causing the leak. I was sent a new seal but every 30-50 gallons the seal would always go out and a rebuild kit is a few hundred dollars. I questioned why the seals went out so often and asked if it could be scratches to the pump rod from the original problem and was dismissed.

Earlier this year I bought a new pump rod and rebuild kit and installed it for several hundred dollars and put them in and now,with the addition of the cougar gun it works fine with no leaks. I took the pump rod to a machine shop and they found a bunch of scratches in the original that caused the premature seal wear. Also the K1 gun is a P.O.S compared to the CAT or the Kremlin.

So after spending all of that money on a problem that should have never happened I will not buy another Asturo product ever again.

I also use MLCampbell products and if they sell and service Kremlin and supply your product then the Kremlin is a smart move.

 

[Denny J]

Denny, I have looked at them at the Spraygun World website and have read several favorable things about their systems and it looks like a good deal to me. The reason I'm going with the Kremlin is because my local M.L Campbell supplier carries Kremlin. There was another system that someone showed me last spring, I think it was the Altendorf rep, I believe it's Italian but I can't recall the name. It seemed very nice and was recommended by another local shop. I've thought about going to see a demo of the thing.

I'm suprised to hear you're not happy with the Asturo. That was another system that came highly recommended. Was the gun the main complaint or is there more you don't like?

IMO the Italian guns are overpriced for what you get, and getting replacement parts can be expensive and take longer than it should at times.

That being said I use the Italian ICA CNA waterbased stains all of the time and they are the very best WB spray stains I have ever seen.

 

[Grandpa Sawdust]

THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT INPUT !

Denny J-----two questions---

First question:

Most of my work is commissioned furniture which gets a hand rubbed oil finish. A small portion is custom cabinet work or furniture that gets a spray finish (polyurethane or lacquer) selected by the client. If I use the gravity feed sprayer you mentioned what tip do you recommend for poly----what tip for lacquer?

Second question:

I plan to build a 200 sq ft (10 by 20) dedicated finish room in a corner of my 3,200 foot shop. I plan filtered air intake on one wall and exhaust through a on another wall----how much air flow do I need? Can I have too much air flow?


Thanks,

Grandpa Sawdust

 

[JCCLARK]

Can I have too much air flow?
Grandpa Sawdust

Yes, absolutely.
I have learned from painting cars, the more air = the more dirt.
Also, to much air flow will make it harder to get the product to flow,
and if you dry the surface to fast, you'll trap solvents and cause
pin holes.
You'll have to experiment, but I find I get much better results with
less air flow, and not spraying directly in the air stream.:icon_cool:

 

[Denny J]

THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT INPUT !

Denny J-----two questions---

First question:

Most of my work is commissioned furniture which gets a hand rubbed oil finish. A small portion is custom cabinet work or furniture that gets a spray finish (polyurethane or lacquer) selected by the client. If I use the gravity feed sprayer you mentioned what tip do you recommend for poly----what tip for lacquer?

Second question:

I plan to build a 200 sq ft (10 by 20) dedicated finish room in a corner of my 3,200 foot shop. I plan filtered air intake on one wall and exhaust through a on another wall----how much air flow do I need? Can I have too much air flow?


Thanks,

Grandpa Sawdust

Well I am not a fan of spraying poly one way or the other. I would stick to brushing that or not using it. For lacquer the 1.4-1.8 tips work fine. You may need to experiment with thinning up to 15% to get them to spray and flow properly depending on the product especially down in the 1.4 range.

As to the second question I cannot help you. I do know there are formulas out there if you look but I don't know what they are but as JCC said, you can have too much.

 

[kreuzie]

Thanks for the input all. I have spoke with some People in the painting business (house painters not furniture finishers) And they highly recommend the airless. It does seam most here use HVLP. The painters informed me that using the HVLP requires thinning material which in some cases is not reccomended by the finish supplier? Any thoughts? They also said clean up is quite easy with the airless but you do have a little more material waste. Again I want to make one investment and get what will last me forever. Not many jobs maybe a couple a year. But I also have a very large deck (15'x60') that needs redoing every other year. I would like something that is dual purpose. If that is not a good idea then I would consider both. I anxiously await replys. You guys have a great deal of knowledge that is much appreciated.

The reason house painters use airless is that they don't want the house to look like a piece of glass!

Airless sprayers cannot atomize materials as finely as conventional or HVLP. They can spray materials with higher solids content-- therefore, no time wasted thinning their paint.

I suggest buying the best HVLP or conventional gun you can comfortably afford, because, like any good tool, you'll end up buying it after you throw out the cheapie!

(If you already have a compressor capable of handling the air requirements, get conventional or HVLP...the turbine jobs make a lot of noise, and the short, fat hose makes accessibility to certain jobs harder.