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Bah humbug
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I got more by the hour working for a furniture company than I did working in a cabinet shop. More interesting jobs.

My shop got caught in the financial bubble. Not enough in the bank to keep afloat till the economy settled.

You won't find 6 digit incomes in cabinetry in kansas city unless your owner or part owner.

I did enjoy furniture. Cad guys need your approval to finalize a drawing.
 

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Bah humbug
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Bass, but I think I will try some crappy this year. Alabama I fished crappy and striped bass.

Reason I bought a cheap boat. A boat, is better than no boat...

I was at my daughters new house. They put in 36" vanities in. My son in law is about 5'8 and the daughter is maybe 5'4. M daughter said it was okay. Personally i wold have blown a fuse..
 

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No wonder I never made much money building cabinets, I never used fillers. The price of my cabinets were all the same except when the doors were raised panel, cathedral, or glass individual panes. The doors were the difference in pricing as well as the materials used. The boxes were the same but I used plywood not MDF or particle board

I did charge more when the materials were higher, like cherry, walnut or what ever. Also made from barn wood were higher. You would be surprised at some of the high end homes where I built barn wood cabinets which were made for the butler pantries. They did look good, I sure didn't think they would when asked to build them though. Way more trouble to build and have to select the wood for different reasons.
 

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Bah humbug
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We don't use fillers in residential custom cabinets, just commercial.

If there coming from a large suppliers and your ordering online, they will supply fillers..

When I worked for a company in Kansas installing full time, the cabinets were purchased online and shipped to each house. We just got payed by the total price.

When I started out I worked for Regency Cabinets in Bates City Misdouri, I sold cabinets based on their pricing. I was already in the door with this pricing. I didn't have to figure it out.
Low pricing , high volume.... good , well constructed cabinets. Tight number with no flaws.

I already knew how to sell them lay them out, build and install them. Made contacts with a marble company and was on my way..

If I remember correctly, Holly at Commercial Millwork in 1983 told me I was the first hired after a ecomical crash in the late 70's...
 

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Bass, but I think I will try some crappy this year. Alabama I fished crappy and striped bass.

Reason I bought a cheap boat. A boat, is better than no boat...

I was at my daughters new house. They put in 36" vanities in. My son in law is about 5'8 and the daughter is maybe 5'4. M daughter said it was okay. Personally i wold have blown a fuse..
I prefer 36" to 32" on vanities, but I also like a work bench height at 38" or so.
 

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Bass, but I think I will try some crappy this year. Alabama I fished crappy and striped bass.

Reason I bought a cheap boat. A boat, is better than no boat...

I was at my daughters new house. They put in 36" vanities in. My son in law is about 5'8 and the daughter is maybe 5'4. M daughter said it was okay. Personally i wold have blown a fuse..
We call Crappy Speckled perch down here in FL. Same dish but the ones up north get much bigger. I used to troll with a spider rig. 4 poles with 3 beetle spins and/or minnows.

In Dec/Jan we fish up in when they’re bedding. Great eating fish.

Along the lines of those cabs, we had new floors put in I told the guy to quit nailing the shoe moulding. He was chopping it with a construction blade looked like a shark ate the miters.

So, me and the Mrs spent the last 2 days doing it ourselves. I’m right proud of our work.

One if these days soon I’ll get back to my kitchen. Dr Robert, master caulker (y) Next is painting my painter is 3 weeks out in work o_O

425114
425115
425116
 

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mike44
retired carpenter and farmer
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That makes two of us.
That makes two of us.
Make that 3 of us. I have read the posts and building face frames first seems to be the accepted way on this forum.
I have worked as a carpenter and cabinet maker from 1962 . I do not recall or even heard of face frames first.
I'm pretty much set in my ways, cabinets first. I will change a method if it makes sense to me. An example is a base cabinet with a toe kick. I cut the notch for the toe kick . One day helper I hired suggested to me to eliminate the notch and build the base frame first, then the base cabinet sits on the frame. So simple and so correct a solution that I wondered why I did not do this before. I probably made a half dozen kitchens before with the notched toe kick.
mike
 

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Make that 3 of us. I have read the posts and building face frames first seems to be the accepted way on this forum.
I have worked as a carpenter and cabinet maker from 1962 . I do not recall or even heard of face frames first.
I'm pretty much set in my ways, cabinets first. I will change a method if it makes sense to me. An example is a base cabinet with a toe kick. I cut the notch for the toe kick . One day helper I hired suggested to me to eliminate the notch and build the base frame first, then the base cabinet sits on the frame. So simple and so correct a solution that I wondered why I did not do this before. I probably made a half dozen kitchens before with the notched toe kick.
mike
From most of the replies here it is obvious that folks either do not do this for a living, or are not employed by a big cabinet company.

We have folks here who have drywall accurate to better than 1/32” and can build cabinets wall to wall with a perfect fit. They have never encountered a wall where a plumb cabinet touches at the bottom with a 3/4” gap at the top. They live in a perfect world where plywood is accurate to better than 1000th of an inch and wood does not move.

They have never worked with installers who takes less than two days to install all cabinets in a new home.

And, they are not dealers representing the manufacturers of cabinets.

A
 

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Your observation is correct - most of us do not do it for a living. Amateurs like me aspiring to do pro quality work appreciate advice and learn from other’s experience, especially from the pros like you all. That said, I can see your point re: rookies arguing with pros. But criticizing doesn’t help anyone.

Speaking for myself, after 30 years of remodelling, cabinet and furniture making, I consider myself a pretty good beginner, but I know taking an entire day to trim out a kitchen would (and should) get me fired.

That said, I had to rip out the shoe mounding installed by flooring people it was such a horrible job I made them stop nailing 1/2 way through.

Willem, I‘m willing to bet once upon a time you didn’t know how to build a cabinet, and you learned a lot from other pros on he job.
 

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Your observation is correct - most of us do not do it for a living. Amateurs like me aspiring to do pro quality work appreciate advice and learn from other’s experience, especially from the pros like you all. That said, I can see your point re: rookies arguing with pros. But criticizing doesn’t help anyone.

Speaking for myself, after 30 years of remodelling, cabinet and furniture making, I consider myself a pretty good beginner, but I know taking an entire day to trim out a kitchen would (and should) get me fired.

That said, I had to rip out the shoe mounding installed by flooring people it was such a horrible job I made them stop nailing 1/2 way through.

Willem, I‘m willing to bet once upon a time you didn’t know how to build a cabinet, and you learned a lot from other pros on he job.
Enjoyed your post.
Cabinet work and the building trades are unfortunately bottom of the barrel, skilled labor is in short supply and I can identify with your experience of poor quality work.
I was fortunate not to have the once upon a time experience you refer, to. Was apprenticed by my father from 9 years old, we have been doing this for 8 generations.

Below is one of my pieces and the reason I believe cabinet work is bottom of the barrel.
425146
 

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Bah humbug
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I can install $1000 per hour... When I worked at Regency we installed 2 sets per day average was $4500 per set... We drove and unloaded our own...

They want me to come back , but I can't work fulltime no longer..

There are two guys on lumberjocks that will argue you should have your doors made. It's just different everywhere.

Cabinet Maker,
Custom Cabinet maker,
Commercial cabinet maker

There are many fields in this work

There's a shop in Gra view that does $40k in cabinets in a house. In the area there working houses that cost $2-$4 million. They think there hotshots, but there just putting on more makeup for the higher cost.

When I talked to Regency about part time work, it has changed. Not a lot of smaller house. It seems instead of two average sets per day, they are now doing one larger set a day. I'm not sure if it's a change in times where people are expecting more in the house or they have moved up to more expensive holmes.
 

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That’s a stunning piece, Willem. The pediment is a daunting work of art as well as the rest. When I see something like this once I get past the beauty, my mind immediately goes to the building process.

You reminded me of a story one of my all time favorites, Frank Klausz told when he worked for his father. He didn’t have a father, he had a master & he was a treated like any other apprentice in the shop. One day he watched his father working and complimented him. His father replied “after 40 years you’ll be a pretty good beginner, too.”

A top notch finish carpenter is out there, but how do you find them? They’re working for top tier contractors getting paid top money, not for guys like me. I will say one of the guys on the flooring crew was the “tile man” he knew what he was about and his work proved it.

My brother did a $300K remodel on a $1M+ condo he owns. Nothing but horror stories. He went to a local custom cabinet shop ended up with Kraft Maids & the cab shop were basically installer. Contractor told him they only custom build for $70K and up kitchens.

The plumbers didn’t install the toilet properly after a month away they found gas odors and water had leaked into the next room, which is the kitchen, and the wood floors swelled. Of course they couldn’t/wouldn’t remove cabinets so ruined floor under cabinet will do something maybe the least will be mold......

Some of the tile was coming off the walls. Contractor‘s got his money.

Of course he ended up hiring someone how does a contractor get a sub to go on a call back they’re all so covered up with work?
 

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IMLE as a total amateur compared to some of you guys 😁 I’ve found built ins are much easier to test the fit and scribe if you make the FF first, especially a large unit you can install the boxes separately and then attach FF’s. Measuring and math can’t help you with a crooked wall out of plum that has to be scribed. You can’t wrestle an 8’ wide by 8’ high unit between two walls without damage. Well, I can’t.

I never build anything other than frameless cabs anyway.....so its not even a question for me 😉
As a professional furniture/cabinet maker for 28 years, I have NEVER built the face frames first. I know some who do, but I always build my boxes, then the face frames. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it's just that there are comments implying that it's obvious to build the frames first. I disagree, wholeheartedly. If you have to build the frames first to make sure they fit a space, then your basic measuring and math skills are lacking.
I used to build boxes first until someone told me frames first save shop space. If I build boxes first the space to build frames and doors is taken up by the boxes, or I'm figuring out where to store them off-site. Wouldn't be a issue with a bigger shop.

Scribe ends of a faceframe are always oversized by 1.5" and cut in the field.
 

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I can install $1000 per hour... When I worked at Regency we installed 2 sets per day average was $4500 per set... We drove and unloaded our own...

They want me to come back , but I can't work fulltime no longer..

There are two guys on lumberjocks that will argue you should have your doors made. It's just different everywhere.

Cabinet Maker,
Custom Cabinet maker,
Commercial cabinet maker

There are many fields in this work

There's a shop in Gra view that does $40k in cabinets in a house. In the area there working houses that cost $2-$4 million. They think there hotshots, but there just putting on more makeup for the higher cost.

When I talked to Regency about part time work, it has changed. Not a lot of smaller house. It seems instead of two average sets per day, they are now doing one larger set a day. I'm not sure if it's a change in times where people are expecting more in the house or they have moved up to more expensive holmes.
We pay between $40-$50 per cabinet to our installers. That includes a 2nd visit to install toe and touch up once the builder is done. We have four installers, a young guy who does a house in little more than one day and an old guy who takes around four days. Quality is our top priority.

At $4,500 per house, you would make more than my net profit on a 2,800 sq ft house where we buy everything as a dealer and perhaps make one or two pieces in our own shop.

You must be in NY or CA?
 

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Bah humbug
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NO, Kansas City. A $4500 dollar set would have no been in first tines buyers home in the 2000-2005. When I had my shop, Mullins was doing a 300k house with about 12k in cabinetry..Difference between laminate tops and so,I'd surface with upgrades...

I got out of cabinetry and pricing in 2013. I still did a few sets between 2006-2013, but I was forman of a commercial shop at this time... In 2013 the commercial shop shut down and I had had it with jumping from shop to shop and went looking for a furniture position..

You get tired of being another spplication in the file cabinet.. I figured I had another 10 years, but disability got me first..
 

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Apparently my comment has stirred some emotions. That was not my intent. Nor was criticism my intent. Let me give an example. In 27 years, I have had 2 jobs where I needed to bring face frame parts out to the customer's house to fit them into place. There were multiple angles and out-of-square walls and floors. Try as I might, I could not get it right any other way. Why? Because my measuring and math skills were not up to the task at hand. So I had to recognize my shortcomings and work around them. Simple as that. It was not a criticism, simply a statement of fact, as I see it. Any other situation I have encountered, I could have built face frame first or cabinet first. I have never, aside from 2 incidences, had to bring a face frame to a customer's house to see if it fits. Measuring and math are all that should be needed. And OF COURSE I don't cut a face frame to fit uneven walls in the shop. Scribing is done on the job site at the time of installation.

Aside from bathroom cabinets, which are fairly small, it is seldom that I need to install a face-framed cabinet in between two fixed walls. When I do, I leave a scribe edge on each stile, right and left. All of my face frame components are mortise and tenoned, EXCEPT for the right and left stiles. Nor are those two stiles glued on. I level and center the cabinet in place, then with my block plane, I scribe each of the two stiles to fit as perfectly as I can, then they are glued in place to the cabinet and secured either with finish nails, or with screws, and then the screwholes plugged with plugs cut from the cut-off end of that specific board so that the grain matches as closely as possible. So, maneuvering a large cabinet in and out of a space to scribe the face frame is not a thing I need to do.
 

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No worries on my part, my point was scribing has nothing to do with math.

But I think I understand what you’re getting at, the main point being leave yourself an out to adjust for out of plumb or bowed walls.
 

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Bah humbug
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If you know how to measure and you've installed enough you tend to know what to look for.

Worst jobs I ever had were the measure didnt take something out to pattern inside or outside angles assuming everything is perfect.

Too many horror stories...
 
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