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Bah humbug
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If your running a cabinet shop, your using software if your of any size. Even when I had my one man shop I had software. I can lay them out by hand or with a some programs.

If you have to have a frame or box to build anything else, that sounds fishy to me...
 

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Tweak a face frame to fit your box?
I have never needed to alter a full cabinet dimensions for a fit. There is always a filler somewhere. Then there is plywood, which is never 100% true in shape. To tweak a faceframe to fit the box is a lot easier than tweaking a box to fit a faceframe. To each his own. In a automated shop, using CNC it really does not matter, nothing is made first to fit something later. Those processes are totally separate and often overlap each and other. The parts are standard sizes stored in multiple storage systems prior to going to the assembly line.
A filler? That sounds commercial to me..

Goin fishin...
 

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willemjm
I agree to your statement " To each his own" If you prefer to build carcass first, do it and be happy. However to imply that anyone who builds face frame first cant measure or do math seems a bit arrogant and short sighted. I can care less how a person chooses to do it. I was just offering my opinion.
I came back to this forum after many years today to find nothing changed. The same moods prevail. Think I will take another break for a few more years.
 

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willemjm
However to imply that anyone who builds face frame first cant measure or do math seems a bit arrogant and short sighted. .
I have followed this thread from the start and did not see anyone making that implication. If making a cabinet to fit between two fixed walls it is easier to fit a face frame separate from the whole cabinet. This applies only to cabinets made on site. Most cabinet shops will undersize the cabinet to the dimensions and then send scribe moldings to allow for the difference. When built on site the frame can be built to much closer tolerances and possibly eliminate the need for a scribe molding. No amount of measuring before hand can account for the differences in a plastered wall.
 

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Bah humbug
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Wall to wall are measured from outside point top and bottom the inside measurement is taken point to point. In residential cabinetry it's a 1/2 on each side and in commercial it can be up to 2".

In residential we use scribe in commercial we will cut fillers to what's needed if straight or angled.

In commercial you may make 12", 18",24",30"36" etc. Most aren't making 7" or 13" cabinets. On say a 12' run you'll gI've 2" on each end because they tend to grow when installed. Rarely will there be blind corners unless specified I the drawings for a commercial kitchen.

I don't make things fit when I build. It's already been decided in the drawings...

When I started in 1983 as a professional. All cabinet were run to the longest point and fitted perfectly., but we had so fits there or where built I to the cabinets back then..

WillemJM....Forums have been the same since I've been on them. There's always going to be opinion differences. I've worked in one man shops and with a hundred.. Furniture makers are a bit quieter, but cabinet makers, there a rowdy group.

Yes.... I can be difficult, but I enjoy talking with other cabinet makers. Cabinet makers are either Democrats or Republics in my view,. We either agree or dont. Lol
2014_8471_hero_1.jpg
 

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mmwood_1.
I have to take exception to your comment " If you have to build the frames first to make sure they fit a space, then your basic measuring and math skills are lacking." I can assure you that my measuring and math skills are quite proficient. I have worked in or owned a production cabinet shop from 1979 until I recently retired. Although it is Important to turn out the absolute best quality work possible, It's also important to make money, and time IS money. Although YOU have probably never made a mistake, they do happen in other shops. The idea of making face frames first allows you to get someone started on the doors and drawers while the carcasses are being built. It will also make it easier to fix any problems, thus saving time, money, and the aggravation of having to alter a full cabinet by just trimming the overhang to fit. Just my humble opinion.
I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment.
 

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willemjm
However to imply that anyone who builds face frame first cant measure or do math seems a bit arrogant and short sighted.
That's not what I said. I said that if you have to build the face frame first to make sure they (the cabinets) fit, then your measuring and math skills are lacking. That is not the same thing as what you are accusing me of saying or implying. I specifically said that I would not consider one method better or worse than the other.
 

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I've read about making face framed cabinets 2 ways.

1. The face frame is made 1st then the carcass is built to match.

2. The carcass is built first then the face frame is made to fit.

Any opinions which is the better method. I'm sorta leaning towards #2 as you can custom fit it to the carcass but maybe there are other considerations.

Brian
I do the face frames first. I most often work off a story pole so once my frames are set up I know they will fit where they are supposed to fit. Some parts have to be done together. On end panels I like to lock miter the side panel into the face frame, making it look like one solid piece of wood. Being that the side panel and stile have to be run through the shaper with the same setup, I run that cut before the ff is assembled. Whatever works for you is fine.
 

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What I was trying to say is that every one has a different way of doing cabinets. It all depends on what works best for them. There is no right or wrong way. you will still wind up with a beautiful cabinet. I just don't understand what the comment about lacking of skills has to do with anything. I don't want to take any more attention away from he original thread. So if anyone that I have offended would like to talk further please message me, I'm sure we could find some type of peaceful closure 🙂
 

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Bah humbug
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What I was trying to say is that every one has a different way of doing cabinets. It all depends on what works best for them. There is no right or wrong way. you will still wind up with a beautiful cabinet. I just don't understand what the comment about lacking of skills has to do with anything. I don't want to take any more attention away from he original thread. So if anyone that I have offended would like to talk further please message me, I'm sure we could find some type of peaceful closure 🙂

He's just wanting to know which he should build first. If he's inexperienced he probably needs to make the frame and use it as a guide line to build the box.
 

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We do around three new residential constructions per week, sometimes a commercial one thrown in. 95% of what we install are purchased, the 5% which we cannot buy we build ourselves. There is no way we can compete with mass production, by building custom in our shop.

There is no such thing as a perfect fit cabinet, walls and drywalls are never 100% true, square and straight. There are two ways to scribe. The expensive high end way is to follow the exact contours of the drywall, with the scribe flush against the side of the face frame. For those high end jobs, there is normally no shoe moulding either. The toe kicks are scribed to follow the contours of the finished floors.

So in short, there is no justification for doing face frames first or boxes first, do whatever makes the builder happy. Personally, for the custom pieces I build, the boxes are the fastest to make and assemble and measuring the face frame off the completed box just means less brain power to worry about and less chance of error.
 

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We do around three new residential constructions per week, sometimes a commercial one thrown in. 95% of what we install are purchased, the 5% which we cannot buy we build ourselves. There is no way we can compete with mass production, by building custom in our shop.

There is no such thing as a perfect fit cabinet, walls and drywalls are never 100% true, square and straight. There are two ways to scribe. The expensive high end way is to follow the exact contours of the drywall, with the scribe flush against the side of the face frame. For those high end jobs, there is normally no shoe moulding either. The toe kicks are scribed to follow the contours of the finished floors.

So in short, there is no justification for doing face frames first or boxes first, do whatever makes the builder happy. Personally, for the custom pieces I build, the boxes are the fastest to make and assemble and measuring the face frame off the completed box just means less brain power to worry about and less chance of error.
Don't you have drawings to go off of? I build drawers,doors,cut out boxes,tops everything off the drawings.
 

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Don't you have drawings to go off of? I build drawers,doors,cut out boxes,tops everything off the drawings.
Yes, we have drawings for everything.
Below is an example of 2020 design in photo rendering mode, as for every job we do.

C4CB07D8-0212-4ACD-9D18-1CA85D39A575.jpeg
 

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Willem & Rebel -

In cases where you have to (or want to - WHY???? I‘ve made templates but they never seem to work out perfectly. Because of this I gave up on scribing and use 3/32 x 1” lathe strips.

I’ve done it by leaving it unattached and install on cab unit after fitting.

425086


425087
 

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Willem & Rebel -

In cases where you have to (or want to - WHY???? I‘ve made templates but they never seem to work out perfectly. Because of this I gave up on scribing and use 3/32 x 1” lathe strips.

I’ve done it by leaving it unattached and install on cab unit after fitting.

View attachment 425086

View attachment 425087
It depends on the builder and the job.
For example if we take a 3,000 sq ft home:
If the builder has a cabinet allowance of +_ $15,000 we would do a level 1-3 job and order scribe as part of the trim. Do pretty much what you are doing.

If the same house has a cabinet allowance of +_$30,000, we would do a leve 7-10 job and neither scribe or shoe molding will be acceptable to the customer. We would scribe a filler to an exact fit, flush with the front face of the face frame, so it is almost not noticeable.

Obviously there is around a 50% difference in price for what we pay, often from the same manufacturer, between a level 1 and a level 10 cabinet. If we have to build something in-house, it will always be at level 10, which is expensive.
 

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Thanks, Willem.

Hadn’t thought about filler - mess it up, make another one - always good to have an out.

I would make the stile a bit wider an try to scribe, so I had to leave it unattached, or wrestle the unit around. Extremely difficult between two walls. And it never worked, so I tried a template - in the end for me it was a lot of work for what?

Out of frustration I went with trim, and truthfully I think it looks better and a whole lot easier and quicker. Scribing looks “unfinished“ to me - well it justifies my ineptness, anyway.
 

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We don't use templates unless it's unusual. .an oddball angle on a wall, barrel cabinet, etc..

Pattern would be layed out by the one who spoke directly to the customer..

I've worked for small and large.

Radius jobs off of commercial drawings or radius drawings for residential I have to lay out on the floor..
 

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We don't use templates unless it's unusual. .an oddball angle on a wall, barrel cabinet, etc..

Pattern would be layed out by the one who spoke directly to the customer..

I've worked for small and large.

Radius jobs off of commercial drawings or radius drawings for residential I have to lay out on the floor..
Sometimes with a bad drywall install we have to scribe the scribe. Our best installer will do a 3,000 sq ft home in 1 1/2 days.
 

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I doubt I need to watch how to scribe a cabinet after 30 years...

Remember , when I started in 1983 everything was build to fit... We were still building so fits in he cabinets..

This is the reason I moved into full time furniture. Cabinets are just repeats...
 

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I doubt I need to watch how to scribe a cabinet after 30 years...

Remember , when I started in 1983 everything was build to fit... We were still building so fits in he cabinets..

This is the reason I moved into full time furniture. Cabinets are just repeats...
I have to admit, there is no skill and no fun in building, buying or installing cabinets. The only part which is a bit of fun is the design part and giving the customer a 3D model they can walk through on their phone or computer.

But, good luck on making six figures building furniture. You are basically selling your labor in competition with someone in Asia earning around $1 per hour.
 
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