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Let me take a minute to first say hello, and thank you all for the mountins of information I have received from this site.

This is my first post, my name is Eric and I am located in Huntington Beach, So. California. I love woodworking.

Ok so now that is out of the way on to my dust dilemma. I came up on a "Delta 50-850" 1200 cfm, single can dust collector for almost nothing and would like to implement it into my small shop. It currently has 2, 5 micron filter bags on it.

I would like to add a two stage system and switch out to a 1 micron felt filter on top and a plastic bag for the dust collection the bottom.

Any ideas on the CFM loss for these mods. Or a formula to figure it out.

Thanks-
Eric
Gorilla Woodworking
 

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Let me take a minute to first say hello, and thank you all for the mountins of information I have received from this site.

This is my first post, my name is Eric and I am located in Huntington Beach, So. California. I love woodworking.

Ok so now that is out of the way on to my dust dilemma. I came up on a "Delta 50-850" 1200 cfm, single can dust collector for almost nothing and would like to implement it into my small shop. It currently has 2, 5 micron filter bags on it.

I would like to add a two stage system and switch out to a 1 micron felt filter on top and a plastic bag for the dust collection the bottom.

Any ideas on the CFM loss for these mods. Or a formula to figure it out.

Thanks-
Eric
Gorilla Woodworking
Welcome to the forum. Your question has been asked and debated several times in one way or another on here. This is my thought, and one of my up cumming projects after I get back from vacation.

Many machines use the plastic bag on the bottom and a filter bag on top. 1 micron is better of course but you could lose some air outflow which could hamper your system. A canister filter on top is better because you get 5-6 times the outflow of air which increases the CFM and they go to .5 or 1 micron filtration. This is the link to a retrofit canister filter. It's a little pricey but not that much more then the bags considering the benefits. Just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
rrbrown said:
Welcome to the forum. Your question has been asked and debated several times in one way or another on here. This is my thought, and one of my up cumming projects after I get back from vacation.

Many machines use the plastic bag on the bottom and a filter bag on top. 1 micron is better of course but you could lose some air outflow which could hamper your system. A canister filter on top is better because you get 5-6 times the outflow of air which increases the CFM and they go to .5 or 1 micron filtration. This is the link to a retrofit canister filter. It's a little pricey but not that much more then the bags considering the benefits. Just my opinion.
Thanks rrbrown.

After reviewing the link you sent I feel the extra $$ would be very well spent. They offer a nano canister that filters partials as small as 0.5 microns. Impressive! My lungs thank you.

Does anyone know the approximate CFM increase the canister offers or another link to offer more information.

Along with my first post, a little more info.... My shop layout requires about 1200 cfm to and I am trying to keep it as close to the original statistics or even boost them, like with a canister.

Thanks again
Gorilla
 

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Thanks rrbrown.

After reviewing the link you sent I feel the extra $$ would be very well spent. They offer a nano canister that filters partials as small as 0.5 microns. Impressive! My lungs thank you.

Does anyone know the approximate CFM increase the canister offers or another link to offer more information.

Along with my first post, a little more info.... My shop layout requires about 1200 cfm to and I am trying to keep it as close to the original statistics or even boost them, like with a canister.

Thanks again
Gorilla
I think your looking at this the wrong way. I'm guessing your a one man shop and will only operate one machine at a time, if not then you may require 1000 0r 1200 cfm.

This link helps some or maybe this one.

Here are the basic list of CFM needed for each machine
Machine CFM Requirements
Table Saw - 10' 350 - 450
Band Saw - 14' 350 - 400
Jointer - up to 8' wide 350 - 450
Planer - 12' 500
Planer -15' and larger 600 - 900
Disc Sander - 12' 300 - 350
Horizontal Belt Edge Sander 550 - 600
Vertical Belt Sander - up to 6' wide 400 - 450
Drum Thicknessing Sander - up to 12' drum 400
Drum Thicknessing Sander - 12' - 24' drum 550
Drill Press 300
Scroll Saw
300 - 350



You should run the largest duct possible for the main line and for as long a run as you can. Reduce it down to the size for each tool as close to the tool as possible.

I ran 4" throughout and it works pretty good but I'm upgrading to 6" main and the canister filter. I have a homemade chip collector and there is another good thread for one on here.

This is the link.
 

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I have that system

and have been well served with the 1 micron top bag and the felt bag downstairs. When I empty the bottom bag, I drop a garbage bag over top of the felt, roll it upside down and lift the felt bag out. I do it outside and it has been fine. I work on one piece of equipment at a time, moving the 4"flex hose to each piece as I go. The work area is small, it is a pain in the neck and it has worked out very well. It handles my Unisaw, 16" bandsaw, 13 planer and 6" jointer. I also have a JDS 200 filter box for ambient air dust collection. From my experience, I'd do the 1mc and put money into the ambient box or your choice.
 

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A quick check of how much more air flow a canister filter can create over the bag is remove your filters all together and see how much more suction is at the tool port now. (no need to actually cut anything but check the suction).

It should be quite a big difference and by adding the canister filter you would get closer to the no filter range of airflow. I checked mine as best i could and there is a difference but not as big of one as I thought, but I have 30 micron bags that I thought were 2 micron. However when I removed the 4" y connector at the DC and checked it, it seamed a little more noticeable.

My plan is still to switch to a 6" main line and reduce to 4" at each tool port. I also will get a canister filter. I also plan on finding or making something to test the air flow as is with the canister filter and then again with the larger duct. For now I plan on making a dial indicator that will have a 3" plastic ball attached to a string or wire. If anyone has a better idea about how to test it please let me know.
 

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Woodworker
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Discussion Starter #7
rrbrown said:
I think your looking at this the wrong way. I'm guessing your a one man shop and will only operate one machine at a time, if not then you may require 1000 0r 1200 cfm.

This link helps some or maybe this one.

Here are the basic list of CFM needed for each machine
Machine CFM Requirements
Table Saw - 10' 350 - 450
Band Saw - 14' 350 - 400
Jointer - up to 8' wide 350 - 450
Planer - 12' 500
Planer -15' and larger 600 - 900
Disc Sander - 12' 300 - 350
Horizontal Belt Edge Sander 550 - 600
Vertical Belt Sander - up to 6' wide 400 - 450
Drum Thicknessing Sander - up to 12' drum 400
Drum Thicknessing Sander - 12' - 24' drum 550
Drill Press 300
Scroll Saw 300 - 350


You should run the largest duct possible for the main line and for as long a run as you can. Reduce it down to the size for each tool as close to the tool as possible.

I ran 4" throughout and it works pretty good but I'm upgrading to 6" main and the canister filter. I have a homemade chip collector and there is another good thread for one on here.

This is the link.
Thanks again.

I am a one man shop and often run two machines at once. How I mapped out my duck work I require 1125. With automation in the future.But more than that I like to over think and inturn overkill.

I guess um saying I dont like to do things twice. I am also trying to set up for a possible small two man show.

I planned on a 6"main leading to a trash can chip collector (modified 55 gallon cardboard drum) then onto the dust collector with a canister (per your recommendation).
With the delta 850 producing 1200 cfm I have little room for loss of airflow and the collector was the right price of free when I bought my 10" unisaw. I was trying to work with what I have. Hens getting the 0.5 mcr canister.

To make get back to the topic at hand. I was looking for performance specs of a canister and trash can chip collector ie:
Canister: gain of 25 cfm

Chip collector: a loss of 100 cfm

Thanks for your correspondance. Very informative. I will dabble and see if I can figure out a cfm gauge idea.

-Gorilla
 

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With the delta 850 producing 1200 cfm I have little room for loss of airflow and the collector was the right price of free when I bought my 10" unisaw. I was trying to work with what I have. Hens getting the 0.5 mcr canister.

To make get back to the topic at hand. I was looking for performance specs of a canister and trash can chip collector ie:
Canister: gain of 25 cfm

Chip collector: a loss of 100 cfm

Thanks for your correspondance. Very informative. I will dabble and see if I can figure out a cfm gauge idea.

-Gorilla
Last thing is that all these manufacturers manipulate the CFM rating in some way. I have the Shop Fox 1 1/2 hp motor 12" impeller which should be close to the one you have and using a 6" main should support 2 tools at once if you reduce down to 4" just before the tool. Even if this dust collector don't work as well as you would like, it should be good enough until you get a larger unit. (HP and impeller)


I know some where I seen a list of reductions in static pressure for pipe length, elbow, etc but never for CFM. I think it was in my owners manual for my old Craftsman dust collector that the motor crapped out on but I will check. I think I read about reduction from chip collector on line but don't remember where.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
rrbrown said:
Last thing is that all these manufacturers manipulate the CFM rating in some way. I have the Shop Fox 1 1/2 hp motor 12" impeller which should be close to the one you have and using a 6" main should support 2 tools at once if you reduce down to 4" just before the tool. Even if this dust collector don't work as well as you would like, it should be good enough until you get a larger unit. (HP and impeller)

I know some where I seen a list of reductions in static pressure for pipe length, elbow, etc but never for CFM. I think it was in my owners manual for my old Craftsman dust collector that the motor crapped out on but I will check. I think I read about reduction from chip collector on line but don't remember where.
I have a .pfd from a dust ductwork distributor with all the information from tool cfm consumption to static pressure calculations. If you would like a copy fortune use.

On another note. What your opinion on pvc vs galvanized duct?
 

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I have a .pfd from a dust ductwork distributor with all the information from tool cfm consumption to static pressure calculations. If you would like a copy fortune use.

On another note. What your opinion on pvc vs galvanized duct?
I use PVC drain pipe, but that's a whole new can of worms you just opened. The truth is in theory metal is better because of the possible explosian risk. However in commercial and even more likely industrial application but not home use. (In my Opinion) I have asked that if anyone can show proof of a dust explosion in a home shop caused by PVC that I would reconsider it but there has never been proof. I have searched the internet myself and nothing. If you live where it is cold and dry then there may be a small increase in concern but I still don't buy it. If you can afford and want the metal duct then go for it to be safe but I stand by my request for proof, with no response.

Metal duct is required in commercial shops by OSHA.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
rrbrown said:
I use PVC drain pipe, but that's a whole new can of worms you just opened. The truth is in theory metal is better because of the possible explosian risk. However in commercial and even more likely industrial application but not home use. (In my Opinion) I have asked that if anyone can show proof of a dust explosion in a home shop caused by PVC that I would reconsider it but there has never been proof. I have searched the internet myself and nothing. If you live where it is cold and dry then there may be a small increase in concern but I still don't buy it. If you can afford and want the metal duct then go for it to be safe but I stand by my request for proof, with no response.

Metal duct is required in commercial shops by OSHA.
That is my opinion as well. Just wanted to hear from someone else with experience. Rather than a website written who knows, who knows when. Now did u get the drain pipe at a big box store ( home depot, lowes) or a plumbing supply house?
 

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That is my opinion as well. Just wanted to hear from someone else with experience. Rather than a website written who knows, who knows when. Now did u get the drain pipe at a big box store ( home depot, lowes) or a plumbing supply house?

Yes but I didn't run 6" at first. For 6" I have to go to a plumbing supply.


With just 4" pipe it will suck my hand up into the duct with quite a bit of force and that's like 25' past the chip collector and with 3 elbows and a tee in the line. I'm guessing 6" will drastically improve the system.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
As per your Osha comment I am well aware of commercial standards.My family has been in furniture frame manufacturing for over 50 years. At work I have a 5 story dust collector that empties into a roll-off dumpster. Horrible efficiency. Let me tell u changing the 25 filters on that baby is an all day chore. I'm just trying to make do at home on a much smaller scale :)
 

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rrbrown said:
Yes but I didn't run 6" at first. For 6" I have to go to a plumbing supply.

With just 4" pipe it will suck my hand up into the duct with quite a bit of force and that's like 25' past the chip collector and with 3 elbows and a tee in the line. I'm guessing 6" will drastically improve the system.
That sounds good. If you are going to resize your main I have found an air handling guide pfd to be very helpful. If you would like a copy of it I would be more than happy to share it. It deals with pipe diameter cfm, static pressure guide and calculations if you are trying to make your system more efficient.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
rrbrown said:
A quick check of how much more air flow a canister filter can create over the bag is remove your filters all together and see how much more suction is at the tool port now. (no need to actually cut anything but check the suction).

It should be quite a big difference and by adding the canister filter you would get closer to the no filter range of airflow. I checked mine as best i could and there is a difference but not as big of one as I thought, but I have 30 micron bags that I thought were 2 micron. However when I removed the 4" y connector at the DC and checked it, it seamed a little more noticeable.

My plan is still to switch to a 6" main line and reduce to 4" at each tool port. I also will get a canister filter. I also plan on finding or making something to test the air flow as is with the canister filter and then again with the larger duct. For now I plan on making a dial indicator that will have a 3" plastic ball attached to a string or wire. If anyone has a better idea about how to test it please let me know.
Another Q: When you removed your 4" y connector at the dust collector did you eliminate it from the system or was it only temp for testing? If so how did you connect back to your system?
 

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Another Q: When you removed your 4" y connector at the dust collector did you eliminate it from the system or was it only temp for testing? If so how did you connect back to your system?
It was temporary for now but a 6" line hooks in place of the Y connector.
 

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That sounds good. If you are going to resize your main I have found an air handling guide pfd to be very helpful. If you would like a copy of it I would be more than happy to share it. It deals with pipe diameter cfm, static pressure guide and calculations if you are trying to make your system more efficient.
Post on this thread I will look at it but it is info for all.
 
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