Woodworking Talk banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
where's my table saw?
Joined
·
28,150 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I dread starting this since dust collection is one of the most widely discussed issues here but That said, here goes.
In order of size and cost:
Shop vac.
Shop vac with dust deputy
Shop vac with separator

Portable dust collector, blower with a bag

Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with bag 2 - 5 micron
Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with canister filter 1 micron or less
Mobile dust collector (1 stage) with separator barrel, technically a 2 stage

Fixed/permanent dust collector piped system overhead bags or filter
Fixed/permanent cyclone type with cartridge filter and dust container overhead pipes.

MY theory is that there are 2 types of wood waste generated by power tools: "dust" and "chips".

For fine dust like that generated by a radial arm saw, router table, and table saw, ROS hand sanders, belt sanders, a shop vac is adequate and because of the higher velocity works better. The filter will require cleaning in an hour or two of sanding. It doesn't stop working, it's just is not as efficient. Dust from sawing is more forgiving and I have a shop vac connected to my RAS and TS and it works great. TS has a over the blade collector on top and it works great.

For the large number of chips that come off a jointer, or planer a high volume collector is best.

Now the debate: Why use a cyclone collector for machines like the jointer or planer? Why not use a 2 stage with a bag and a separator?
The small "dust" container on a cyclone will fill with chips in short order and require emptying more often. I don't have a cyclone so this is a "theory" of mine.

A lengthy run on the planer will fill the underbag or barrel of a 2 stage in a day.

A long run on the 24" drum sander will clog the filter on a canister
or bag collector in short order, so use a separator or dust deputy type cyclone. The permanent cyclone collector will be best for the drum sander or wide belt sander generating loads of dust.

Unless I've missed something here, the cyclones are being "over sold"
and have specific applications where they really are the best choice.
My view is that the drum sander would be the best application.

For a $1000 investment I can get a 2 HP cyclone.
Or two possibly 3, if on sale, 1 1/2 HP mobile canister collectors, 1 micron filters.

Which is the best investment? I'm considering a cyclone even though I have 3 mobile collectors, with 1 micron cartridges filters.
1 1/2 HP Jets and a 2 HP Jet. I use a 2 stage with canister collector for the drum sander, but it is not used frequently.

Any comments? :eek: bill
 

·
Chronic Tool Addict
Joined
·
134 Posts
I'm stuck in the same boat. I'm not really sure where I want to put money for dust collection. I consider myself only a hobbist at best and have limited space as you'd imagine. A pratical person would probably go for the seperator on a shop vac with a hepa filter and an ambient air cleaner. However, I just don't see this shop vac theory doing squat on my table saw or radial arm saw just like I don't see a true dust collector doing squat on my portable tools and such.

I don't want my dust collector to be the most expensive thing in my shop...
 

·
What Wood I Do
Joined
·
291 Posts
I use a 3hp cyclone from Oneida Air and find it to taake care of the majority of my dust collection needs. I palce a plastic bag in the container and it takes only about 2 minutes to open the container and replace it with a new bag. The filter doesn't need cleaning except maybe once a week and when i clean it I blow it out with compressed air outside of my shop.
I use the cyclone for my 22 inch drum sander, 6 inch jointer, 15" planer, table saw, miter saw, 2 router tables, band saw and I have 2 flexible 4" hoses that are 25 ft long each to clean all the floor areas of my shop.
For my orbital sander I have it hooked up to a small festool shop vac. I use this small vac also with my handheld router that has a dust collection attachment for the router plate. This does a pretty decent job.
In the past I had a 2 stage mobile collector with bags that did an OK job but I am much more satisfied with the cyclone.
 

·
Splinter Cushion
Joined
·
661 Posts
I've been slowly improving the air quality in my shop in the cheapest ways possible.

First, I made an air filter. It's a plywood box with a bunch of old computer fans and a computer power supply to run them, with a household HVAC filter on one end. It's pretty cheapo, but it's better than a box fan pointed out the door (my original method).

Then, I decided to use my shop vac to collect the dust / chips from my work on the lathe - where I spend most of my time. That helped pull a lot of dust away from where I work, but the filter gets clogged pretty quickly, and most of the chips still hit the floor. I added a homemade plywood separator box that marginally slowed the shop vac filter clogging.

Then I got this month's WOOD magazine with the Harbor Freight DC coupon in it, plus a 20% off coupon. So, I went to my local HF. Got the 2hp DC with its crappy 5 micron filter bag for $140, plus the accessory kit for 20% off of $40.

When I make a little bit more money with my wood products, I'll buy the Wynn convertion kit for the HF DC.

The way I see it, if you're running a shop on a tight (or zero) budget, anything is better than nothing. Each step of the way has been an improvement in my shop, and sooner or later, it might even qualify as "safe"!
 

·
where's my table saw?
Joined
·
28,150 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
This new product makes my point

http://www.steelcitytoolworks.com/products_tools.cfm?section=2&category=5&tool=65115

A self contained dust/chip collector which mounts right on the planer dust hood seems like a great idea for smaller planers, bench top units.
The AWFS show featured it with the new tools for 2009.
This thread has had 100+ views and only 3 replies???

Does anyone else agree with my theory, or am I all "wet" and dusty. :laughing:

Theory being: fine sanding dust should be collected in cyclone unit,
sawdust in a 2 stage unit and chips can be managed with a single stage, blower with a bag type unit.
Secondary theory: Cyclones are over-hyped for a one unit does all.
If used for collecting "chips" from planers and jointers the small containers need to be emptied more frequently.
Any more comments on this? :blink: bill
AWFS show review: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/awfs
 

·
just a dude
Joined
·
630 Posts
I prefer the cyclone to do just about everything. That way I save room, no portable collectors to take up space or move around. One can to monitor and empty keeps things simple.

I've tried the shop vacs on many tools and haven't found them to be effective on anything except maybe a hand-held sander. The best use I've found for them is to keep one tucked under a machine that doesn't have really efficient collection (such as the lathe) and use it to suck up the chips that are left over.

Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Dust Collection Worksheet, Excel

Hi Everybody,

I just finished working out my own dust collection system needs for my shop. I used the 2007 Wood Magazine formulas and made up a spreadsheet.....

Then I thought, how many other folks could use this? So I prettied it up some, added some notes and here it is. Please don't crucify me if it doesn't meet your needs, I make no claims as to its accuracy, I just used the Wood Magazine info. And please don't hold me liable. I just offer it in good woodworking faith.

If you want a copy, just email me at [email protected]
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
801 Posts
Picked up the HF collector over the weekend...... gonna make the Thein mod to it... and order the Wynn filter when my Tax refund shows up (that and a MIG welder) LOL I'm still debating on how to run the pipe as it's a small shop and stuff has to be moveable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Picked up the HF collector over the weekend...... gonna make the Thein mod to it... and order the Wynn filter when my Tax refund shows up (that and a MIG welder) LOL I'm still debating on how to run the pipe as it's a small shop and stuff has to be moveable.
I hear you, Matt135. I'm fortunate that I now have most stuff stationary. I'm using 5" pipe for my ducts, and am running it all the way to the tools where I can to make the most of it.

I can vouch for others who say you need a dedicated circuit for this machine. It tripped my 20 amp breaker at start-up while I also had a light plugged in.

Can you do me a favor? if you have an ammeter, could you please run a test for me?

1. Remove the wye inlet, start the DC, and measure the normal operating amps before the Wynn/Thein Conversion.

2. Do the same after the conversion.

I'd like to know how much higher the post conversion amperage is with the reduction in back pressure.

Thanks to Bill Pentz, I obtained some good info on this machine:
Out of the box, the HF DC motor runs at about 11 amps, or 1.43 HP normally with both sides of the wye inlet open. That, and its 10.5" x 3" impeller, will suck about 900 CFM and will overcome a static pressure of about 9 inches, given it's 5" inlet size. If you switch to a 6" inlet plate on the blower you get a little more, maybe 1000 CFM. You would also get a little more with a larger impeller (say 12 inches) and a larger inlet.

So I'm really interested to know what this conversion will do for performance. Thanks.

By the way, I'd like to give a shout-out to Pentz. The man must get a ton of email, and he responded to mine right away in great detail, and was very nice about it. A very generous man.
 

·
where's my table saw?
Joined
·
28,150 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
This thread has been hijacked

:thumbdown: bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
806 Posts
MY theory is that there are 2 types of wood waste generated by power tools aka "dust" and "chips". Posted by WoodnThings



Bill,
I do tend to agree with you about the two types of dust. The big question i feel everyone has either asked or tried to think out for themselves is how to contain the two. Budget and space i feel play a huge part is answering this question.
Example= In my old shop (24x40) i had ample room for a complete dust containment/collector system, the space i have to work in now limits me, and i would suppose alot of other folks on this forum to whatever setup they can configure that will work best for them.
Now i know this subject has been beat to death on this forum, so here is conclusion i have come to -- Send pictures to a dedicated thread of your dust collection setup, maybe even explain a little how efficient and effective the particular system works for you, and some of the pros and cons of their particular DC system. I guess i am the type of person that can come to a better conclusion once i can see a picture versus a typed question. (That is the result of loosing to many brain cells:yes:). Anyway it's just a thought.
 

·
where's my table saw?
Joined
·
28,150 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Garry I'm just looking for opinions here

And want to see if anyone has decided that my "theory' is correct and what their approach has been....Cyclone vs mobile vs bags etc. Yeah, a 3 to 5 Hp cyclone will do it all, but we're taklin' some serious $$$. In spite of my best efforts at dust collection there's still a lot of fine dust on everything in the shop. So I run the overhead air filtration Jet AFS 1000 also, but that doesn't correct the entire problem. Maybe the "mobile" units just aren't that efficient even with the 1 micron cartridge filters.
My next thought is to build a large downdraft table/outfeed table/room air filter and just run it all the time....it might suck down the work as it passes onto the outfeed table... that wouldn't be good! :thumbdown:

Here's what I use currently:
Two 1 1/2 HP Jets and a 2 HP Jet.
I use one of the 1 1/2Hp Jets on the 24" dual drum sander, with 1 micron filter on the drum sander, and this is where I think a cyclone or a an add on dust separator would be most useful. Maybe a Thein or a Pentz cyclone? They even have a "giant gorilla" separator for $290.00 from Oneida. Probably worth a try anyway. :yes: bill

More info; http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b95cb3cc1cce88fa49dc9406b2194c70&topic=366.0

And the Thien inside a HF from post below:
http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.ph....msg819#msg819

And this: http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b95cb3cc1cce88fa49dc9406b2194c70&topic=366.0
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
806 Posts
Bill,
Seems that you are as close to capturing as much dust as a person can. I can't see what else a weekend woodworker could have, and i'm guessing that is what most of us on this forum are. Dust is a big issue, when i say dust i am talking about that fine nasty stuff you get from sanding and the like, thats why i normally try to clean the work area at least 2 to 3 times a day when i am working in the garage, and a final time when i finish for the day. I know for a fact the system i have will not pick up the finer dust created in my work space. There are things we all could do to come closer to good air quality, and if i'm getting what you are talking about that is bottom line. Here is something to ponder, ever notice where all the fine dust goes, normally on the floor. Ever notice where people uausually install their additional air filtration, on the ceiling. For me personally, with the setup i have, trying to capture all the chips and dust would be like trying to shove a noodle up a wildcats butt.
Now for my honest opinion--I don't think there is a way to capture "ALL" the dust we create in our respective shops, unless we could work in a totally sealed enviroment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Having a basement shop

I have to be concerned with the airborn dust too. I have a Delta 50-850 with a 1mc bag. I have a bunch of white oak 8&10/4x12x8" I've been turning into saw dust and chips and unfortunately...kindling. I am filling the lower bag in a heck of a hurry. I have the shop vacs too. One of the best units for the airborn is the JDS 200 filter box. It does a good job. There is a bag filter internal to the small pleat. I buy the pleated filters by the case (12 I think) from a Purolator distributor so I'm not getting killed on them. I carefully vacuum the bag filter when replacing the pleat and have not replaced it yet. I suppose I should soon.

Standard throw away furnace filters don't filter until they get dirty. Use pleats! If there is a market where liers figure and figures lie, it is the air filter manuf. To get a grip on this there are new rating systems in place over the past couple years. They have MERV ratings on air filters now. The higher the number the better the filter...from day one, meaning they do not have to get dirty to be effective.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,535 Posts
I'm curious to find out whether you folks use respirator masks at all? I almost always have mine on so I don't worry as much about the dust collection (though I probably still should) other than just getting a semi-clean work area. One of these days I will either build or buy a separator to get the dust and chips in different collection bins, but for now all I use is a small shop vac and empty it out every once in a while.
 

·
just a dude
Joined
·
630 Posts
I'm curious to find out whether you folks use respirator masks at all?
Even with a Delta overhead air cleaner and central collection system, I still wear a mask most of the time. That stuff helps keep the overall dust down, but it's still easy enough to get a face full of it on occasion.

But, having allergies, I may be more sensitive than most.

Rob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
I do not wear a mask most of the time. I have an allergy to Western Red Cedar and got really sick once when working with some Spanish Cedar (mahogany family), so I wear a respirator when working with those (mask won't cut it). If someone were to come out with a form-fitting mask that delivers fresh air and does not leave the face all sweaty I would use it. Otherwise, I just can't take 'em for more than a few minutes. But I don't do woodworking for a living, either.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top