[DrRobert]

I’ve posed the same idea with the PARF guide. Wouldn’t it be nice if Woodcraft rented them out?

Since I plan to redo my assembly top as an MFT, I’ve researched this quite a bit. I’ve concluded you definitely need a jig that registers accurately. I’ve looked at everything from DIY to expensive PARF guides ans Woodpecker. I’ve also looked at peg board, also Bora makes a predrilled top to either use as a pattern, or skip the whole process and use it as the top.

There are various guides or stencils on EBay produced by people with CNC’s.

My “original” idea was to use pegboard and pin guides similar to what WNT described, but soon discovered it was not my idea.😉

 

[DrRobert]

The grid has to be square so you can brace two parts of a face frame against the dogs and have then held at 90 degrees while you screw the pocket screws in. This gives you a rail and stile that are aligned on all three axis, less sanding and no gaps. If the dog holes aren't aligned to begin with, then the face frames you build won't be square. I don't think that free-handing it will be accurate enough for cabinetry.

I've seen videos of people using paddle bits with one of those drill press jigs like Jim posted that you put your drill into. The dog hole has to be drilled at 90 degrees. A forstner bit would also work but you still have to make sure it drills a hole at 90 degrees, a plunge router makes a hole that is nice and sqaure with the top of the table.

I've been following this guy on you tube, take a look at 8:20 to see how he uses the dog holes and some clamps to align the face frame for assembly. This is what I'm aiming for.

I totally get you, but I’m not sure others do. They aren’t just dog holes, they anre extremely accurate dog holes. Agree 100% you need a jig for repeatable results, otherwise the error multiplies. If pencils and squares were accurate enough Mr. Parf wouldn’t be a millionaire.

A drill guide can be accurate enough if it’s good enough. The only one I’ve seen that measures up is the Rockler and it’s a little pricey, hard to justify for a seldom used jig.

96mm grid isn’t necessary. That’s why I think the pegboard system is the cheapest most accurate way to go. The trick is making a base plate adapter perfectly centered on the bit 😳. Not sure exactly how to do that.

 

[DrRobert]

Another "great idea" came to me reading this thread and seeing the images. Let's make the template I descibed above from 3/4" BB on an 8" square accurately laid out with the four 3/4" diameter holes.
Secure the template on the pencil lined grid for the first 4 holes, BUT no need to drill than all the way through using the template. Drill just 1/2" or so deep for now and come back later and drill them all the way through.
Still use two 3/4" dowels or pins to locate the template into holes, 3 and 4 made initially.

That‘s the basis for most jigs. Pegboard easier, get as big a sheets as you need, don‘t ah e to move anything.

@builtinbkyn2 — You need a base plate with 4 registration pins. The bit has to be centered on that. Check the Woodrave jig that basically it.

 

[DrRobert]

I understand. So what’s the issue? Place the stock you are going to use for the plate under the pegboard , pick four evenly spaced holes and drill away. The center is determined by the spacing of your holes based on the dog hole grid spacing you want.

I think I see what you’re saying, but seems to me it would be better to have the hole centered exactly on a pegboard hole.

Thinking about it, the way to do it would be to install a 1/4” bit, turn the router upside down, drill a 1/4” hole in the accessory base, place on router base with the bit through a hole, and use double stick tape to attach to base. Drilling holes to match base would be a bit tricky. Then a piece of peg board and drill 4 dowel pin holes. This is basically what the Woodrave jig is. Unfortunately it’s no longer available. The advantage going you can create as big a template as you want, rather than be restricted like the Rockler, Domifix, etc.

What I don’t particularly like about the Rockler & Woodpecker is using a 1/2” bit + multiple passes & and having to run the collar around the circumference, as opposed to a single plunge cut with a 20mm or 3/4” bit.

When I do it, I think I’ll stick with the pegboard method and see how well it works.

 

[DrRobert]

There is nothing wrong with pocket screws, I just prefer M&T. When I make a cab box I make the face frames first, and make the boxes 1/4" undersized in the width (1/8 overhang or scribe). The back of the box is 1/4" plywood that sits in a 1/4" dado set back 1/2" from the back edge of the cab to allow for a 1/2" ply nailer. When the back is inserted and stabled into the back of the box is when the box is squared. There are a number of ways to attach the face frame to the box. Some use splines, biscuits or cut a dado in the sides of the face frame to accept the cab side. Some nail them, some just glue them. I do not believe there is any one of these methods that is "better" than the others, just preference. Being that the cabinet is already squared, when the face frame is applied it will square itself it slightly out of square. An square face frame will not square an out of square box. Don't overthink it. You want your face frame as close to square as possible, but by the time it is finished and ready to be put on, with only 2" widths, it likely will not be perfectly straight or square anyhow. Make sure your boxes are perfectly square, that is the key and simple to do.

The advantage of pocket screws is pretty much labor saving. No joinery, no clamps or waiting for glue to dry. You make the ff and immediately install on cabs.

Pocket screws there, too. On exposed end cabs biscuits/Dominos/dowels and glue. BTW I’ve mounted face frames to plywood edges with nothing but glue and you can’t get them off! DAMHIKT. If the cabs are already mounted use those special face frame clamps.

I think the key to perfectly square boxes is having your table saw dialed in, and like parts dimensions gang cut IOW don‘t change that fence.

 

[DrRobert]

Have you seen this Doc? Link Seems like a reasonable price for a true MFT top if you are going to use Festool dogs and components.

I hadn't seen those, kinda pricey. I've looked at the Bora tops made for their Centipede stand, but they are 3/4" holes, which can be an issue. 3/4 vs 20mm (.787") Parf dogs are I believe 19.9 mm (.783) to fit 20mm holes, not gonna work with 3/4"

I believe Lee Valley and some others carry a 3/4" Parf dog, not sure about the ones made to attach a track.

Long story short, it seems to me if you're set up for it tool wise and want to go with a true MFT set up, you need to 20mm holes. There's just no easy way to do it: either a 20mm Forstner bit (cheapest) or 20mm router bit. That sends you down a bit of a rabbit hole looking for bits (Bosch and Festool are the only ones I've found) or a 20mm router bit, which only come in 10mm collet sizes, so you need a collet adapter. Either way its $50-70 depending on what you get.

So yeah, considering the cost of bits, template and time to make one, not to mention human error, I think a person might be better off buying a predrilled top?

For your home viewing entertainment:

 

[DrRobert]

Not sure how exactly accurate these MFT tables must be to be of use, but his method does introduce error. His measuring from the edge instead of simply using another 4mm something or other inserted into the holes he drilled parallel, was silly. He has one awl of 4mm and couldn't find something else that's the same diameter? And suggesting you can just eyeball things by aligning the jig across half the hole, destroyed all the checking of accuracy he did prior to starting. I'm sure it will be sufficient, but as I asked, not sure how accurate these need to be. I've never used one.

I put that in the post to illustrate you can't slop your way through it. He could never rely on that table to reliably jig up anything square.

You have basically summed up why I refuse to buy anything festool.
"Let's make everything we sell custom to a standard we invent so users cannot use any other brand ever"

So you're able to get into the mind of an engineer or a production team in Germany? 35mm hinge cups, 32mm cabinet system, 20mm dog holes -- European standards and make perfect sense for something made in Germany.

Once upon a time, I had your attitude about Festool, and that's your right, and I agree to some extent, for example I'd never buy their jigsaw or miter saw. But I can tell you you're missing out on some excellent sanders. On second thought, nevermind, didn't you say you don't sand anything?

 

[DrRobert]

He did take himself seriously lol

Hand cutting mortises and tenons can be relaxing or frustrating lol, but I do love my Festool Dominos to make quick work of things. Worth the price of admission IMO.

It’s funny how people can have totally different experiences with a machine or tool. I had a Domino and it turned out not to be the game changer I thought it would. But my biggest issue was try as I might, I could never consistently get the alignment everyone talks about, in fact I got better results with a biscuit joiner. I always felt it was related to the fence. I really tried to eliminate operator error.

I sold it back during COVID when Festool shut down and it ended up @ $1100 on EBay.

I have a floor mortiser (nice machine) but limited to square material. After doing the mortises by router in the deck chair build, I got kinda sold on that.

 

[DrRobert]

Here's the result, it's not perfect but it's close enough for my skill set.
View attachment 446797

I’d be interested in your experience with the jig, and whether you’ve checked the grid for accuracy. 😉

 

[DrRobert]

Within 1/16" measuring with my 24" square. Good enough for my skill level. It's as accurate as my saws.

That would be ok for face frames.