Woodworking Talk banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

· That Guy
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All

We replaced the table in our trailer with Acacia butcher block from the giant orange store and I ended up with a 2 foot by 3 foot piece leftover.

My idea is to put some feet on it to raise it up a bit and then fill it with dog holes to use as a clamping board for putting together face frames etc. I can clamp it to the bench and then remove and store it when not needed. Maybe when I get the bigger shop I'll build a base for it so it's a proper bench at the proper height.

You tube videos seem to suggest the best way to make 3/4" holes is with a 1/2" spiral router bit and a collar in a template made on a CNC machine. Woodpecker and Rockler both sell the kit.

So... has anyone ever bought this kit used it once and put it on a shelf? Want to get some of your $$ back?

Call me cheap but I don't want to spend $100 on a dog hole kit.

On the other hand I don't to spend a half a day building a jig so I can build a clamp table, I want to spend the weekend building some face frames.

The best possible answer is that someone else already has this, has used it, doesn't need it again and wants to pass it along for some $$


Jeff
 

· where's my table saw?
Joined
·
32,292 Posts
Cheapsake or practical? If it were me, I'd just use a 3/4" saw tooth Forstner bit in a 1/2" corded drill with a guide.
If the pattern is the issue, not the hole drilling process, then a drywall square or equivalent in 24" and a fine line pencil would be my method.
I suppose, for the OCC types, make a pattern template. Using a 3/4" thick X 8" square BB with 4 holes accurately drilled could be used in a progressive manner with holding dowels to locate the next two holes. That way, you only need to lay out the first 4 holes accurately and work your way around the block using the previously drilled holes to locate the next two.
Full Disclosure, this is an imaginary/theoretical approach I have never tried....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kudzu

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
I’ve posed the same idea with the PARF guide. Wouldn’t it be nice if Woodcraft rented them out?

Since I plan to redo my assembly top as an MFT, I’ve researched this quite a bit. I’ve concluded you definitely need a jig that registers accurately. I’ve looked at everything from DIY to expensive PARF guides ans Woodpecker. I’ve also looked at peg board, also Bora makes a predrilled top to either use as a pattern, or skip the whole process and use it as the top.

There are various guides or stencils on EBay produced by people with CNC’s.

My “original” idea was to use pegboard and pin guides similar to what WNT described, but soon discovered it was not my idea.😉

Drill Flooring Pneumatic tool Automotive tire Audio equipment


 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,061 Posts
having never used dogs, don't they just go into a 3/4" hole?
wouldn't a paddle bit be as effective as a forstner bit or a router bit?
i'll assume they were originally installed with an bit and brace
not sure i see the use of the 5" grid as holes down the sides would probably work as well
i see all the extra holes as catch-alls
 

· The Nut in the Cellar
Joined
·
1,778 Posts
When I did the dog holes in my workbench, I used a Forstner bit of the appropriate size mounted in my PortAlign drill guide driven by my 1/2" corded drill. It has a max rpm of 200 and easily hoged out the holes wherever I needed them. The drill guide also mounts under one of my table saw accessory tables to use as a drum sander when I didn't have an OSS. I laid the hole pattern out with masking tape and squares, straight edges, pencils and erasers. Unless this is more than a one off task, I see no need for a template. I drilled the dog holes all the way through the bench top, thus no dust/chip catching.
 

· That Guy
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The grid has to be square so you can brace two parts of a face frame against the dogs and have then held at 90 degrees while you screw the pocket screws in. This gives you a rail and stile that are aligned on all three axis, less sanding and no gaps. If the dog holes aren't aligned to begin with, then the face frames you build won't be square. I don't think that free-handing it will be accurate enough for cabinetry.

I've seen videos of people using paddle bits with one of those drill press jigs like Jim posted that you put your drill into. The dog hole has to be drilled at 90 degrees. A forstner bit would also work but you still have to make sure it drills a hole at 90 degrees, a plunge router makes a hole that is nice and sqaure with the top of the table.

I've been following this guy on you tube, take a look at 8:20 to see how he uses the dog holes and some clamps to align the face frame for assembly. This is what I'm aiming for.

 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
The grid has to be square so you can brace two parts of a face frame against the dogs and have then held at 90 degrees while you screw the pocket screws in. This gives you a rail and stile that are aligned on all three axis, less sanding and no gaps. If the dog holes aren't aligned to begin with, then the face frames you build won't be square. I don't think that free-handing it will be accurate enough for cabinetry.

I've seen videos of people using paddle bits with one of those drill press jigs like Jim posted that you put your drill into. The dog hole has to be drilled at 90 degrees. A forstner bit would also work but you still have to make sure it drills a hole at 90 degrees, a plunge router makes a hole that is nice and sqaure with the top of the table.

I've been following this guy on you tube, take a look at 8:20 to see how he uses the dog holes and some clamps to align the face frame for assembly. This is what I'm aiming for.

I totally get you, but I’m not sure others do. They aren’t just dog holes, they anre extremely accurate dog holes. Agree 100% you need a jig for repeatable results, otherwise the error multiplies. If pencils and squares were accurate enough Mr. Parf wouldn’t be a millionaire.

A drill guide can be accurate enough if it’s good enough. The only one I’ve seen that measures up is the Rockler and it’s a little pricey, hard to justify for a seldom used jig.

96mm grid isn’t necessary. That’s why I think the pegboard system is the cheapest most accurate way to go. The trick is making a base plate adapter perfectly centered on the bit 😳. Not sure exactly how to do that.
 

· where's my table saw?
Joined
·
32,292 Posts
Another "great idea" came to me reading this thread and seeing the images. Let's make the template I descibed above from 3/4" BB on an 8" square accurately laid out with the four 3/4" diameter holes.
Secure the template on the pencil lined grid for the first 4 holes, BUT no need to drill than all the way through using the template. Drill just 1/2" or so deep for now and come back later and drill them all the way through.
Still use two 3/4" dowels or pins to locate the template into holes, 3 and 4 made initially.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
I totally get you, but I’m not sure others do. They aren’t just dog holes, they anre extremely accurate dog holes. Agree 100% you need a jig for repeatable results, otherwise the error multiplies. If pencils and squares were accurate enough Mr. Parf wouldn’t be a millionaire.

A drill guide can be accurate enough if it’s good enough. The only one I’ve seen that measures up is the Rockler and it’s a little pricey, hard to justify for a seldom used jig.

96mm grid isn’t necessary. That’s why I think the pegboard system is the cheapest most accurate way to go. The trick is making a base plate adapter perfectly centered on the bit 😳. Not sure exactly how to do that.
Use the pegboard as your template/drill guide and overlay it on the stock you plan on using for the base plate.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
Another "great idea" came to me reading this thread and seeing the images. Let's make the template I descibed above from 3/4" BB on an 8" square accurately laid out with the four 3/4" diameter holes.
Secure the template on the pencil lined grid for the first 4 holes, BUT no need to drill than all the way through using the template. Drill just 1/2" or so deep for now and come back later and drill them all the way through.
Still use two 3/4" dowels or pins to locate the template into holes, 3 and 4 made initially.
That‘s the basis for most jigs. Pegboard easier, get as big a sheets as you need, don‘t ah e to move anything.

@builtinbkyn2 — You need a base plate with 4 registration pins. The bit has to be centered on that. Check the Woodrave jig that basically it.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,509 Posts
Hi All

We replaced the table in our trailer with Acacia butcher block from the giant orange store and I ended up with a 2 foot by 3 foot piece leftover.

My idea is to put some feet on it to raise it up a bit and then fill it with dog holes to use as a clamping board for putting together face frames etc. I can clamp it to the bench and then remove and store it when not needed. Maybe when I get the bigger shop I'll build a base for it so it's a proper bench at the proper height.

You tube videos seem to suggest the best way to make 3/4" holes is with a 1/2" spiral router bit and a collar in a template made on a CNC machine. Woodpecker and Rockler both sell the kit.

So... has anyone ever bought this kit used it once and put it on a shelf? Want to get some of your $$ back?

Call me cheap but I don't want to spend $100 on a dog hole kit.

On the other hand I don't to spend a half a day building a jig so I can build a clamp table, I want to spend the weekend building some face frames.

The best possible answer is that someone else already has this, has used it, doesn't need it again and wants to pass it along for some $$


Jeff
I really do not understand the need for such a device. I make my face frames mortise and tenon. If the mortise is cut properly and the shoulders of the tenon are square the face frame will be square. If using pocket screws, if your rail end is cut perfectly square, then your face frame will be square. The best of jigs can not take an out out of square rail end and make a square face frame out of it. What am I missing?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
126 Posts
That‘s the basis for most jigs. Pegboard easier, get as big a sheets as you need, don‘t ah e to move anything.

@builtinbkyn2 — You need a base plate with 4 registration pins. The bit has to be centered on that. Check the Woodrave jig that basically it.
I understand. So what’s the issue? Place the stock you are going to use for the plate under the pegboard , pick four evenly spaced holes and drill away. The center is determined by the spacing of your holes based on the dog hole grid spacing you want.
 

· The Nut in the Cellar
Joined
·
1,778 Posts
Ah, pocket screw joinery. I make my face frames flat on my assembly table using 90 degree squares and clamps both to the squares and the table top. I use a variety of joinery methods, but not pocket holes. I know it's not as quick as pocket hole joinery, but I'm not doing production work so time doesn't matter. If one is doing a lot of pocket holes, then a proper clamping jig is a necessity.
 

· That Guy
Joined
·
616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
As a hobbiest/homeowner I need to pick a method and tool up to that method. My cabinets will all likely be in utility rooms, secondary bathrooms and/or laundrey rooms as well as my shop. I doubt my wife will want to let me build the kitchen cabinets. Mine will not be "on display" and further to that, they'll all likely be made of poplar and painted white.

So with that in mind mortise and tenon seemed like too much work, I considered dowels but after trying then a couple of times I found they were hard to get in the exact center. Pocket screws and a clamping table system seems like a good option.

I've asked the guy in the woodworking department at my local tool store to order this for me.


I'm sure it'll be $100Cdn by the time they are done with me but I like that it's the old 3/4" holes and I like that the cutting tool, in this case a 1/2" spiral router bit, never touches the template, you plunge, then rotate the router around the template hole with the guide touching the template and you get your correct hole. This means that the template won't get chewed, bitten or enlarged by contact with a spade or forstner bit.

Fingers crossed.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
I understand. So what’s the issue? Place the stock you are going to use for the plate under the pegboard , pick four evenly spaced holes and drill away. The center is determined by the spacing of your holes based on the dog hole grid spacing you want.
I think I see what you’re saying, but seems to me it would be better to have the hole centered exactly on a pegboard hole.

Thinking about it, the way to do it would be to install a 1/4” bit, turn the router upside down, drill a 1/4” hole in the accessory base, place on router base with the bit through a hole, and use double stick tape to attach to base. Drilling holes to match base would be a bit tricky. Then a piece of peg board and drill 4 dowel pin holes. This is basically what the Woodrave jig is. Unfortunately it’s no longer available. The advantage going you can create as big a template as you want, rather than be restricted like the Rockler, Domifix, etc.

What I don’t particularly like about the Rockler & Woodpecker is using a 1/2” bit + multiple passes & and having to run the collar around the circumference, as opposed to a single plunge cut with a 20mm or 3/4” bit.

When I do it, I think I’ll stick with the pegboard method and see how well it works.
 

· where's my table saw?
Joined
·
32,292 Posts
Great suggestion on the 1/4" router bit which fits exactly in the pegboard holes!
You can have several size templates if that makes sense at the cost of 1/4" pegboard.
AND, the pegboard is not altered and is still usable.
Another advantage us you can see the entire layout BEFORE drilling any holes and you can shift it to make it symmetrical or whatever.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,509 Posts
As a hobbiest/homeowner I need to pick a method and tool up to that method. My cabinets will all likely be in utility rooms, secondary bathrooms and/or laundrey rooms as well as my shop. I doubt my wife will want to let me build the kitchen cabinets. Mine will not be "on display" and further to that, they'll all likely be made of poplar and painted white.

So with that in mind mortise and tenon seemed like too much work, I considered dowels but after trying then a couple of times I found they were hard to get in the exact center. Pocket screws and a clamping table system seems like a good option.

I've asked the guy in the woodworking department at my local tool store to order this for me.


I'm sure it'll be $100Cdn by the time they are done with me but I like that it's the old 3/4" holes and I like that the cutting tool, in this case a 1/2" spiral router bit, never touches the template, you plunge, then rotate the router around the template hole with the guide touching the template and you get your correct hole. This means that the template won't get chewed, bitten or enlarged by contact with a spade or forstner bit.

Fingers crossed.
There is nothing wrong with pocket screws, I just prefer M&T. When I make a cab box I make the face frames first, and make the boxes 1/4" undersized in the width (1/8 overhang or scribe). The back of the box is 1/4" plywood that sits in a 1/4" dado set back 1/2" from the back edge of the cab to allow for a 1/2" ply nailer. When the back is inserted and stabled into the back of the box is when the box is squared. There are a number of ways to attach the face frame to the box. Some use splines, biscuits or cut a dado in the sides of the face frame to accept the cab side. Some nail them, some just glue them. I do not believe there is any one of these methods that is "better" than the others, just preference. Being that the cabinet is already squared, when the face frame is applied it will square itself it slightly out of square. An square face frame will not square an out of square box. Don't overthink it. You want your face frame as close to square as possible, but by the time it is finished and ready to be put on, with only 2" widths, it likely will not be perfectly straight or square anyhow. Make sure your boxes are perfectly square, that is the key and simple to do.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,447 Posts
There is nothing wrong with pocket screws, I just prefer M&T. When I make a cab box I make the face frames first, and make the boxes 1/4" undersized in the width (1/8 overhang or scribe). The back of the box is 1/4" plywood that sits in a 1/4" dado set back 1/2" from the back edge of the cab to allow for a 1/2" ply nailer. When the back is inserted and stabled into the back of the box is when the box is squared. There are a number of ways to attach the face frame to the box. Some use splines, biscuits or cut a dado in the sides of the face frame to accept the cab side. Some nail them, some just glue them. I do not believe there is any one of these methods that is "better" than the others, just preference. Being that the cabinet is already squared, when the face frame is applied it will square itself it slightly out of square. An square face frame will not square an out of square box. Don't overthink it. You want your face frame as close to square as possible, but by the time it is finished and ready to be put on, with only 2" widths, it likely will not be perfectly straight or square anyhow. Make sure your boxes are perfectly square, that is the key and simple to do.
The advantage of pocket screws is pretty much labor saving. No joinery, no clamps or waiting for glue to dry. You make the ff and immediately install on cabs.

Pocket screws there, too. On exposed end cabs biscuits/Dominos/dowels and glue. BTW I’ve mounted face frames to plywood edges with nothing but glue and you can’t get them off! DAMHIKT. If the cabs are already mounted use those special face frame clamps.

I think the key to perfectly square boxes is having your table saw dialed in, and like parts dimensions gang cut IOW don‘t change that fence.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top