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Delta 14" Bandsaw Resilient Ring Mishap

1736 Views 50 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  woodnthings
I have a so-called Platinum Delta 14" band saw 28-263 that I bought some years ago at an auction. The other week it started dogging during the cut. I didn't immediately realize what had happened. But after spending probably 40 minutes cutting I got tired of having to keep letting the motor regain it's speed. When I decided to change the blade even though it still felt sharp to my hand I decided to open the base. What I found was surprising. The motor was hanging by the belt. What had happed was that the resilient ring which holds the motor to the mount broke through the casing for some reason. But it didn't even make a sound to let me know that something had changed.
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Anyway I looked around to find a replacement resilient ring and from everything I had read they were supposed to be a real pain to install and everyone was saying that if you used a screwdriver you were going to shorten it's life. That left me looking for some alternate method of sliding on the ring and pushing back the tabs which were rubber so it could go onto the motor. It seemed like I would need something like a metal or plastic piece, something smooth to prevent hanging, that was literally the size of the resilient ring with the tabs removed on the one end and a somewhat smaller side to get it started to slide it up onto the motor. Turned out that was not an easy thing to find and wood would have to be something that was very slippery from some type coating to prevent the rubber ring tabs from hanging. I looked at plumb bobs they were the closet thing I could think of that might work except mine wasn't the right size and it would have to have the round top cut flat to mate up against the motor. I finally decided the hell with it's longevity this was proving to just be a pita. I sat down and just used my fingers and literally had it installed in maybe 3 minutes.

When I went to remount the motor I found out it didn't fit the motor mount. The mount has 2 prongs that go around the resilient rings on each side. But the width was different. The motor was shorter than the mount. The motor appeared original and the motor mount as well and so I torqued the motor across the mount by pulling it towards the side that had failed. Because of the rubber rings it had enough play to allow me to get it on both sides of the mount but as soon as I started the bandsaw up the new resilient ring exploded. I assumed that since it had worked with the setup in it that it must be correct and therefore went forward,.

So I got the second resilient ring and installed it and as I was trying to mount the motor it ended like the photo below. The rubber literally came out of the ring on the side that was still attached. That was when I decided not to blow up another one and see if I could get some answers.

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I decided to measure the mount and the motor and what I found out was I have 1/2" difference between the 2 parts. That didn't seem right to me and so I contacted Delta tech support to find out if something was wrong. However, what I found out was tech support just referred me to their service centers. There are 2 within an hours drive from me both in opposite directions but they suggested that I call first and so I did. The first one said we fix motors. I said so you can't sell me or get me a part or even specs? We service motors and I've told Delta that time and again. OK so maybe just a bad situation. I called the 2nd place. I was transferred 4 times to some guy that supposedly had some understanding of their role with Delta. He told me that as far as he knew that Delta had gone out of business. Again I asked so you don't have any parts in bins, diagrams or specifications in binders, etc,? We don't have anything in fact we don't even sell Delta. OK.. So I learned that Delta, although it had apparently had some type of contract in place for these firms has never visited any of them and gave them a list of expectations as to how they wanted their customers treated or how many parts they should be maintaining etc. I reported all this back to Delta tech support suggesting that they probably should be telling these companies what they expected from them but now that they knew there was no resolutions coming from them I needed to get the specs on the length of the motor and the mount from them. But they told me they don't have any specifications available to them. How on God's green earth did they ever become the company they once were and not have a single exploded part diagram or parts being manufactured for replacement or specifications for torqueing bolts that hold motors?

Sorry about the "story" but I'm so frustrated and I don't really know how to resolve this other than to do what I think is correct and taking the mount which is one solid piece and having it cut down the middle extracting 1/2" to match the motor and then having it welded back together which at a machine shop is probably going to be maybe $150.. I would just feel better about doing this fix if someone out there could tell me that they should both be the same length because they checked their own machine. Of course that would require dismounting the motor from the mount to find out. I mean they could have purposely made them so that the torqueing across the larger mount was part of the noise silencing theory but I don't want to do such a radical change to the mount and then find out that no other motor will fit because they can't even tell me if I have the right motor or the right mount. Maybe I should get a replacement motor with more HP instead assuming that the motor which is a Delta motor was replaced incorrectly already.

Anyone out there a Delta specialist that doesn't work for Delta?
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Not seeing this first hand this is only a guess, is it possible that the brackets with the prongs have been sprung out making them wider than the motor mounts, can you just bend them back into position?
Nothing appreciable. Maybe a 1/16" on one side.
Which dimension did not match up?
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In your photo, it appeared the diameter of your ring, fit with the saddle, but maybe that is not the case?
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The measurement on the motor mount from one set of tabs/ears to the other set of tabs/ears is 10".
The measurement on the motor from the center of one resilient ring to the other resilient rig is 9 1/2".
I see that you have two rather simple choices, 1. adjust existing cradle to fit motor, 2. purchase a new cradle to fit motor.
It is hard to understand why you have an incorrect cradle, unless work was done previous to you purchasing unit, if the arms were sprung apart they can be bent back using an adjustable wrench. The fact that the saw was used after the ring blew apart may have caused this.
The arms aren't sprung. They one side might be out by 1/16th". Cradles aren't available on any of the parts sites I've seen nor do they even offer the specifications nor are OEM motors and since most are the same site with just a different store names I don't expect to find any. That leaves me with 2 options reducing the cradle to 9 1/2" or finding a motor that fits the cradle but I can't even get anyone to verify that my setup is wrong. Just because my thought is it's mismatched doesn't make it true.
Parts like a motor mount may be very hard to find as "individual pieces" rather than coming with the motor as on Ebay?

You're not gonna bend those mounts with an adjustable wrench if they are like mine.
It's gonna take a 5" bench vise that's bolted down on a heavy bench, and even then, maybe some heat at the bend?
They would not have bent from the rubber ring blowing out, in my opinion.
Something just doesn't make sense.
They are not bent. As I've said a few times the one side mayy be off by 1/16th".
As you found out force is not the answer.
This is assuming the rings are/ were properly installed.
Unless the base has been bent or twisted, it would seem the base size you have, is not compatible with the motor.
Which still leaves you with the options mentioned in post #3

Seeing as this bandsaw was previously used and sold at auction, It would be pure speculation as to the cause for this mis-match.
I agree but I can't even get specs from Delta.
I was talking about how you "could" bend them to decrease the distance between them.
However, any competent welder could saw/grind one of the them off and move it back 1/2" and weld it back on.
That's where I'd be going, lacking any other options.
The problem with bending them is you will have an angle. Not a huge one but an angle that's not going to be straight onto the motor. That doesn't seem like a great solution just kind of twisting and bending in a different direction. Those resilient rings aren't going to like any angles. I think that's just going to encourage them to want to let go, If there was someway to add onto the ears to temporarily bring them closer without thickening them so that if I got another motor would be undoable would make me happier. From the motor side I don't see anyway to manipulate it to move the ring holders out. Any permanent type change could bite me in the end. I'd really like to know what's wrong. It doesn't look like it has a lot of use or hours on it so to have replaced the motor seems a stretch but replacing the mount even more of a stretch. On that 2nd image you can see I have no retaining piece of metal. The metal that holds the rubber is just that piece that you see which is only big enough to cover the rubber tabs. Without those tabs pointing in towards the shaft you could just put the ring on like a washer.

I'm not a welder. I don't have the equipment.

Your motor is very different from mine. Your mount is very different in that it looks like you have some type of black metal retainer outside of the rubber rings to keep them in place. All I have is that little metal bracket that goes around the ring to keep it in place. Now I know I don't want to have any angle in either direction.. I don't have anything like that. This first image is the end that exploded. You can see the new "ring" behind the pulley. The 2nd image is the side that the ring pulled out of the retainer. The motor is sitting backwards from the way it would be installed so don't be confused by the mount being reversed. It's the wire length restriction that made me have to flip it around.

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Bending them is not my first choice!
It would be very difficult and they wouldn't end up at the same height if you only bent one.
Not a good idea regardless!
That's why I immediately suggested the "cut and weld" approach!

The vertical mounts are part of the base, The silver metal brackets with the adjustable screw is all that retains the ring on the mount.
You have yet to post a good photo of the vertical mount. How the ring sits in it and is retained.
And how the vertical supports come from the base which would determine whether cutting and weld is a good solution.
I only have my own motor as a reference!
Keep in mind I am offering suggestions without seeing the whole picture. JUST TRYING TO HELP A GUY OUT!
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This is a long shot, but I was inside this motor repair shop and was very impressed with their knowledge and quantity of motors.
Give them a call with your dimensions and see what they have or would recommend as a source for parts:
That makes sense.
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I haven't taken out the mount so the best image is going to be the one at the top of the post or maybe this one I've taken trying to show it from straight in. Before everyone get's freaked about the look at the top where it's held onto the horizontal bar looks funny because I had loosened them but it's perfectly shaped.

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The second image shows how much of an angle is generated to achieve a 1/4".
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If the resiliant bushings and their securing brackets are all in working condition, then the next step is to deal with the length of the mount.
The start up torque on the motor mounted in this fashion would "throw the bushing" in a heart beat if everything was not in alignment.
I'm with you. The odd part is it's been working for a couple years. I'm not sure how it stayed together that long. Now I wasn't using it everyday or even every month. It got used when I needed it but it was way more than my table saw. I'm also concerned about the motor now because of it slowing to a stall. Is there more than one thing going on? I guess my thinking is that it wouldn't have slowed it would have slipped because there was not tension on the belt. But that's not what happened. Is there a way to test it?

My last trip to my friendly machine shop was to have them create a longer depth gauge for a Bosch 1617EPS router. I tried to get Bosch to make it right even sent them a video showing how it was essentially 4+" too short for the specifications of the router. They thanked me but essentially told me to go pound sand. Realize they have a machine that's probably fed a rod and I would think they could have faked it out just by hand loading a longer rod. I could be wrong. It is a design flaw but no one else had complained so nothing was going to get fixed. That remake cost me all but $300 now that's a one-off build or fabrication I get that but it was essentially a rod with one side flattened and a screw on the tip which they call they micro-adjust. Maybe 1/4" thick and ,if I remember, 11" long made from stainless.

The old days of the guys in their garages at least where I live are gone. Most of those one man shops are gone. So you have to deal with businesses that are running production lines for other companies that aren't interested in one-offs or in my case I found a company that all they do is one-offs but even their one-offs are maybe 50 units not 1. I guess you can tell it's lucrative but when I walked in I was asking him if he's struggling against cheap goods from China and I don't think he was going to cry but I could see the angst in his eyes. H etold me that most machine shops are barely holding on.
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Certainly, any competent electric motor repair shop will be able to ;
(a) test your present motor
(b) determine if your present NEMA frame is the correct frame for your present motor
(c) give you a quote/price on a used frame or new frame
(d) give you a quote/price on a new motor complete with frame

Seems to me this issue falls directly under the area of expertise that an electric motor repair facility deals with on a daily basis. Don't know your area but we have about 4 such shops within a 50 mile radius local to my area.

You can certainly get a quote from a weld shop also.
I'm afraid this project is doomed to failure. I've been trying for the last several years to get underway and just one thing after another seems to stop me.but thanks for your input.
Drum Sander? Are you sure the link is correct? Those resilient rings are used by Marathon motors and others as well. You can buy a motor and it comes with the same setup as I have now but they're expensive like $400-$500 regardless of the type of mount. But how much sense does it make to diagnose a old motor, have it repaired and then have to get the mount fixed? I'm justifying, can you tell? I would expect motor diagnosis and repair to be very backed up maybe several months and probably like $300 for the repair and the mount. I'm thinking just take the pain buy a new one and then if there's value in repairing the old motor it can get done and I don't have to be at a stand still. I think I discovered it came out of a pancake compressor which is why it doesn't fit the mount.

If anyone knows any discount motor manufacturers that have good quality pass them along.
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I'm not wasting it. Just not depending on it for now. I knew from buying the resilient rings there are a million different motors. Harbor Freight had a 2hp frame 145 which I'm not sure of the difference but I've seen places where a 56 can also be a 56C and there are 2 other numbers I've seen that are also somewhat interchangeable. They had an open box, 2hp, frame 145 for $149. But there are no specs on the box and the guy that came to see if I was able to find anything didn't even know they had a 2hp motor or if you could call and order a motor that they didn't have on the floor. I tried to explain to him that you can't just use any 2hp motor that there were probably over 1000 2hp motors all with different specs but the blank stare told me everything. He started about purchasing their 14" bandsaw which they could then offer replacement parts on but probably not for a non-HF machine. Ugh! But he seemed to think he was going to sell me their 14" bandsaw which was more expensive than the 2hp motor with 3/4 HP inside. I think it was listed at $349. Jesus talk about cheap. I checked it out just trying to see what motor it had inside but I couldn't get at it without having to remove a one of those brown panels like pegboard is made from. The structure that supports the upper tire is only 3-sided steel not even a complete piece of rectangular tubing. I would think removing that 4th side would be expensive even to saw off but the savings for shipping I guess could be significant. I got the number off he box on the motor to see if I could get more specs. I'm never sure if I should buy certain things from HF for fear of bad specs poor durability being two off the most important yet I buy stuff that surprises the hell out of me at times.
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OK so before I go off the deep end. I finally chased down the motor for my bandsaw which I had assumed had been replaced because why would anyone replace a motor mount and not replace it with the correct one? Also the big long number on the motor did match a pancake compressor motor. The motor I have is what came with the bandsaw which makes for some very strange questions now about that 1/2" difference in length. Thoughts? I can't go to Delta Service Centers because as they've already told me they have no information. Delta Customer Service says the same thing that they have no specifications for anything. I just can't make sense of this mismatch or is it? Do I even care anymore if I'm going to replace the motor? Why is it eating at me? Well the answer is because Delta can't explain that it should be that way or it shouldn't. Whatever motor I get I'm wondering if I want to get something that would have the resilient rings and how much difference that might make soundwise and vibrationwise?
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Unless I'm mistaken, it's not the motor, it's the "cradle mount" that's not the proper dimension. How this happened is still a mystery.
And that's what bugs me. It doesn't make sense. But do you agree that I should get another motor with the resilient rings?
That depends on your budget and your patience, and how long the machine can stand idle?
There a plenty of bandsaws that to NOT have that type of motor, like the one posted.
If you will post the exact dimension you want between centers on the motor mount, I'll call my local motor repair shop and see if they have one.
That will save you about $200, depending on what that mount would cost, IF they have one?
Also post the name plate including the HP and frame type.
I appreciate your help but I think I should get something local in case there are issues. I don't want to have to be shipping it back and forth. I did see that this little strap is all that holds the current motor or correct motor in place. I saw 3 similar motors up for auction used for bench grinders that use this same method of retention. It just seems so minimal or ineffectual.

Thanks so much for all your help.

It's a pretty flimsy setup.
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A question for you. My motor is listed as a frame 56 yet has the ear mount but shouldn't there be another frame # for the ear mount? I thought the whole point of the frame number was to insure you have the correct mount?
No reason to get angry. But there's no point in fixing the mount because I'm not planning on buying a motor to fit the mount.
I wasn't anrgy, just frustrated that you seemed stuck between a rock and hard place and no solutions were forth coming, just jabber.
So I offered to cut and weld it for you, at not cost other than shipping.
That seemed like a decent deal to me?

That makes no sense.
If I fix the mount you have, you don't need to buy a new motor because we are shortening the original mount to fit the original motor.
That would be true but because the saw was dogging during a cut instead of slipping the pulleys that seemed to indicate to me something had happened to the motor. The saw was stalling on the smallest turn and it was hardly cutting even on a straight cut. Just to go an 1/8" would take forever and it kept stalling requiring me to keep having to back off. I put a new blade on and nothing improved. At first I attributed it to dense wood plus a thick 5" cut and an older thin blade. Usually the stuff I cut is mostly straight cuts in soft materials and maybe 1/2 thick at most. This wasn't a setup that I had done but maybe once or twice before but I knew something was off. A 3-inch cut took over 1/2 an hour and ultimately was the reason I opened the base but I never expected what I found. The motor was hanging by the belt which would explain why it wasn't cutting but not why it was stalling. Rather than stalling I would have expected a good motor to slip the belt.

From there I got the replacement resilient ring put it on after being told not to use a screw driver on it and stabbing one's hands, etc and I was trying to figure out how I was going to install it. In the end I gave up trying to find some method to slowly retract the nubs and just used my hands and had it on in a few minutes. Then when I tried to put the motor back on I realized that mount was a different width than the motor but because I had been using that way for over 2 years I thought maybe that's the way it was supposed to be. After I got the motor back on the mount it immediately broke the brand new resilient ring so much for resiliency.

When I tried to talk to Delta about the setup they weren't able to give me any direction except to call their service centers which had no information either. As I said early on I don't have a lot of experience diagnosing motors but I'm very good at logic. Before I thought about the motor and how it was acting under a load I was trying to figure out if the motor was wrongly 9.5" or if the mount should be 9.5". Since no one can tell me what's right it seemed prudent to think about the motor itself before I went making changes to a mount which appears in all reality to be original but now I can't explain why they two are not in sync nor even if they should be in sync. It's only 3 people's opinions that one or the other needs to change but since I think there's an issue with the motor, and feel free to chime in on my motor analysis, but it makes more sense to me just to get a new motor that will come with a mount attached that I won't have to question than to spend more money on an older motor and even if my thinking is wrong I won't have to be wondering if the existing setup is destructive or not.

Yes I do sometimes get stuck and overthinking things but that's me. My career was computers and that served me very well and it prevents me from making rash decisions which is why most of the software these days is total crap because they'd rather cram it into production and fix it later which ends up costing twice as much than missing some arbitrary deadline.
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Yes, the issue could be either the motor or the mount being the incorrect length.
It would be easy enough to measure the distance between the resiliant rubber rings when installed in their respective locations and the width of the mount between the two ring supports. The fact that the rings failed suggests the distance was not a match. Those rings will last a lifetime of normal use.
But if oil soaked or incorrectly mounted they will tear apart and fail.

An easy way to test the motor's power is to install the pulley and center a 36" long 1/2" dowel in the "V" groove and bear down it with a firm grip with both gloved hands. Rather than a dowel you could use a piece of wood 1/2" or 3/8" thick in the same manner.
In my case, I have used a heavy glove and just begin to grasp the pulley, knowing full well it wants to spin inside the glove, but I'm prepared to let go instantly.
I am pretty experienced with all types of motors, drive belts and welding gloves, but I know my limitations after many years of experience.
If it stalls immediately, then it's probably junk and not worth spending any more effort on.
It if continues to spin with considerable down force then it's probably fine.
There are motor dynamometers of course, but you are not going to have one in your shop.

I think I recommended or you suggested? to take the motor to a repair shop for them to test and check it out.
Yes I was thinking of having it tested but because the mount and the motor are out of whack it just seems like more money chasing bad. I might call and ask how much they charge for a diagnostic but I can't imagine it would be less than $100 so that's already 1/3 or so towards a new motor. Fixing the mount would be probably $50 in shipping even accepting your gracious offer. I mean a certified letter is all but $10 now and it weighs less than an ounce. It used to be that FEDX and UPS charged $10 for overnight delivery but I think they are almost up to $20 for a letter.

I don't have any issue grabbing the pully I'm not sure I follow the whole idea with the dowel in the keyway. Any motor can be fixed it's just a matter if your willing to do it yourself or pay someone to rewind it. I had an old furnace motor that had been through a flood that I put away in a cabinet and about 10 years later the motor I bought to replace that died. I asked the repair guy how much for a motor he told me I think $700 I new he was gouging and I told him to use the motor I had from the flood. He connected it up and sat it on the concrete trying to convince me that the noise was the motor and I said pick it up off the concrete and that noise will stop. They're all shysters' anymore. I had been with them for 20 years and that's how they're going to treat me? And this was the owner. Not really anyone to complain to until I'm willing to make a move. I do like their plumbers I think most of them have treated me fair. I even bought my last replacement A/C system from them a 4 ton for $4000 you'd think they'd appreciate my business. Anyway he asked if he could have the old motor, I wasn't going to rewind it and if he wanted to that was fine with me. The thing is I know he's going to sell it to someone as new for $700. Had I thought of that at the time I probably should have kept it just to protect someone else.
Yes, the issue could be either the motor or the mount being the incorrect length.
It would be easy enough to measure the distance between the resiliant rubber rings when installed in their respective locations and the width of the mount between the two ring supports. The fact that the rings failed suggests the distance was not a match. Those rings will last a lifetime of normal use.
But if oil soaked or incorrectly mounted they will tear apart and fail.

An easy way to test the motor's power is to install the pulley and center a 36" long 1/2" dowel in the "V" groove and bear down it with a firm grip with both gloved hands. Rather than a dowel you could use a piece of wood 1/2" or 3/8" thick in the same manner.
In my case, I have used a heavy glove and just begin to grasp the pulley, knowing full well it wants to spin inside the glove, but I'm prepared to let go instantly.
I am pretty experienced with all types of motors, drive belts and welding gloves, but I know my limitations after many years of experience.
If it stalls immediately, then it's probably junk and not worth spending any more effort on.
It if continues to spin with considerable down force then it's probably fine.
There are motor dynamometers of course, but you are not going to have one in your shop.

I think I recommended or you suggested? to take the motor to a repair shop for them to test and check it out.
I've talked about the difference many times. The motor is 9.5" and the mount is 10". Delta can't tell me if it's correct or not, neither can the service centers. Delta used to sell it as an assembly so it was already mounted on the mount and you just had to put the mount into the base which in an enclosed base is a pain. They used to mount them on top of the base in the back. That makes sense. It's easy to get to and you always know what's going on probably not quite as safe. Once it's inside that base you loose that connection of seeing it and knowing it's working properly.

I have noticed while I've been searching for a motor that most resilient ring motors are under 1hp. I'm not searching for them just come across them occasionally. For a 1hp and above you have to go to Baldor, Marathon, etc. the name brands and they are over $1K for a 1725 rpm. This 1hp 1725 rpm frame 56 motor is a rarity. I'm going to go down and wire it up and see if I can stop it with my hand. I suspect I can. I've already contacted a motor testing company and explained my symptoms and they're going to give me a price for a diagnostic.

I just came across a man selling used cradle mounts he has a 9 1/2 for $37.90 incl s&h. I'd have to verify the diameter but it's there if I need it. A path I only came across when I wanted to see the frame number for these cradle mounts. They don't sell them by width or length but by SKU. Searching on 9 1/2" won't get you were you need to go. I see frame 42, 48, K56, 56H, 48Z, If I go to a 3450 RPM the price comes down which seems a bit strange to me and I'd have to replace the drive pulley as well. Any drawback to having a faster RPM motor?
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