[ORBlackFZ1]

I really like my Craftsman Model 152.221140 Table Saw. I purchased it new from Sears in September 2010 for $540 after they had been discontinued. It replaced a Delta bench top model that I had been using for five years prior to that.

Over the last couple of years, I have customized the TS with a laminated outfeed table, laminated extension table (58" rip capacity), sealed all the dust collection leaks and added hold down capability to the fence. I have the blade, miter slots and fence all aligned correctly. I use good thin kerf blades and dado blades.

My only complaints with the TS are:

1. The splitter is very malleable and tends to bend out of alignment with the blade if it gets bumped. I have looked at third party splitters, but thought I would ask here first.

2. The 1.5 hp motor gets bogged down when cutting hardwood such as cherry, maple and oak. There seems to be a very fine sweet spot between feed rate and the burn rate. When the feed rate is too slow, the burn rate increases. When the feed rate is too fast the motor bogs down quickly.

I have done some research into finding a more "robust" TS, but when I compare features, I usually like my Craftsman TS the best. I have looked at Jet, Delta and Powermatic table saws over the last year and I didn't find them any better than the Craftsman TS that I have now.

I visited the Grizzly showroom in Bellingham a couple of days ago to look at the G1023RLWX (5HP 220V 10" dia blade) with the W2007 extension rails and the GO605X1 (5HP 220V 12" dia blade). Yes, I like the saws, but when I compared the features that I was giving up, I decided not to purchase. The fence on the G1023 is very basic compared to my Craftsman fence. The fence on the G0605X1 was definitely an upgrade over the G1023, but still lacked the ability to mount a feather board hold down to it without creating a jig. The dust collection shroud around the blade was very attractive, but I have made my TS so good at collecting dust, that I can't see that the Grizzly shroud would do any better.

Anyways, I thought that maybe a better solution to problem #2 above, would be to upgrade the motor to a 3 or 5 hp motor.

Has anyone upgraded their Craftsman Model 152.221140 to a larger HP motor?

Does anyone have experience purchasing a larger HP motor for their table saw?

Any recommended places to purchase the motor from?

I have read through the NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) classifications and it looks like a NEMA Frame 56 is the proper form factor for my saw. The shaft size of 1 1/8" dia and length of 1 7/8" seems to be standard. As long as the motor is a TEFC (Total Enclosed Fan Cooled) and the correct HP (horse power) and VAC (voltage alternating current) are there any other specifications that I should be concerned about?

As for problem #1, I have no ideas on this one, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[woodnthings]

before I'd get a new motor ...

A 1 1/2 HP motor that is in good condition and working correctly "should" be fine. Make certain the switch and power cords are connected and supplying the proper current 15 AMPs and the wiring to the machine outlet is up to snuff. A dedicated 20 AMP supply circuit would be ideal.

Then I would look into a thin kerf blade. I use the Freud Diablos, a 10" 40 tooth, model D1040 on my Craftsman saws with great results. Try that before anything else and see how it works for you.

If you passed on a 5 HP G1023 to keep your present saw, I find that amazing. In spite of all suggestions to the contrary, the fence on the table saw is really the thing you interact with most often, not the motor. The blade comes in second and the motor is either adequate or not. I put a 220V, 2 HP Baldor motor on my old 10" Craftsman saw and it was scary powerful. It would walk right through anything I tried to cut on it. The 1 3/4 HP motor on my Craftsman hybrid saw is also up to the task. The Biesmeyer fence is a joy to use. So what I'm saying is you can always upgrade to a more powerful motor and a better fence, but it may make more sense to just give up old Betsy and pop for a new saw. That's a choice you may have already made, I donno? :blink:

Those motors may be overkill for that saws's arbor bearings. You shouldn't need more than a 5/8" shaft on the motor. Also the additional weight of that class of motor may not be appropriate for the motor mount. It's like stuffing a 572 cu in motor in a Vega, it can be done, but there will be addition issues. If it were me, I would reconsider the G1023 and improve on the factory fence if that's a huge issue. The internals on a cabinet saw are SO much stronger than a contractor saw that there is really no comparison. Maybe the folks in the showroom will make a deal on a better fence for the G1023?

 

[toolguy1000]

.......The 1.5 hp motor gets bogged down when cutting hardwood such as cherry, maple and oak. There seems to be a very fine sweet spot between feed rate and the burn rate. When the feed rate is too slow, the burn rate increases. When the feed rate is too fast the motor bogs down quickly.......

proper blade selection in important for these 1.5 hp saws. thin kerf with the proper tooth count to the operation goes a long way to better cuts. i thought my 113 series c-man and ridgid TSs were accurately set up long ago, but burning issues convinced me otherwise. really diving into set up and use of 24T blades for ripping and 40-50T blades for CCing made all the difference. i ripped 8/4 oak for the auxiliary fence of a 3 hp '70s vintage unisaw i refurbed and sold, opting to keep my 2 emerson built contractor saws.

 

[Dave Paine]

I used to have the Craftsman 152.221240 model, which was full length cabinet and 1 3/4HP motor. Your model is smaller 1 1/2HP motor, shorter cabinet and different fence.

My 120V 1 3/4HP motor would bog down when cutting thick maple, e.g., 8/4

Some woods, like cherry can burn with any saw or blade.

I looked into getting a 2 HP 240V motor when Orion first came out with this option. They later changed the company name to Steel City Tool Works.

At one time I was able to get to the Orion Parts list for the 2 HP motor version of my table saw to compare the differences.

There are challenges to upgrading the motor :
a) If I recall, the motor mounting plate is not standard so you may need a motor from Steel City.
b) The arbor bearing was different.
c) The belt was different due to the arbor being different.
d) The switch is different. Needs to break both hot wires. Existing switch only breaks the single black hot wire.

I recommend keeping the table saw, using different thin kerf blade as mentioned in earlier replies, or getting a 3 HP saw and selling the present saw.

After pondering the upgrade I eventually purchased a 3 HP saw and passed only saw to my best friend who is still using it.

 

[FrankC]

You don't mention the voltage that you are running the saw on, generally 220 will give you better performance unless 110 is run under optimal conditions. 1 1/2 HP should be tolerable in most circumstances.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

You don't mention the voltage that you are running the saw on, generally 220 will give you better performance unless 110 is run under optimal conditions.

240VAC. Thanks for pointing that out.

Y1 1/2 HP should be tolerable in most circumstances.

Interesting comment....Would you care to elaborate?

Eric

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

A 1 1/2 HP motor that is in good condition and working correctly "should" be fine. Make certain the switch and power cords are connected and supplying the proper current 15 AMPs and the wiring to the machine outlet is up to snuff. A dedicated 20 AMP supply circuit would be ideal.

I changed the voltage to 240VAC a couple of years ago with a 20 amp circuit. At 240VAC the running amps are about 7.5 The torque improved slightly after making the change.

Then I would look into a thin kerf blade. I use the Freud Diablos, a 10" 40 tooth, model D1040 on my Craftsman saws with great results. Try that before anything else and see how it works for you.

I use a Freud Avanti 10" 40 tooth for most of my cutting. It has a thickness of 3/32". Is that considered a thin kerf? Would a blade with less teeth work better for ripping?

If you passed on a 5 HP G1023 to keep your present saw, I find that amazing. In spite of all suggestions to the contrary, the fence on the table saw is really the thing you interact with most often, not the motor.

I drove 275 miles one way to visit the Grizzly showroom. Yes, I did pass on the Grizzly table saws. They were really nice table saws. The blade height and tilt mechanisms were far smoother than my Craftsman. They appeared to be made better than my Craftsman. If I didn't already have years of experience with my Craftsman, I would have probably, purchased the G0605X1. But when I considered what I use the table saw for, the Craftsman, still appeared to meet my requirements better.

The blade comes in second and the motor is either adequate or not. I put a 220V, 2 HP Baldor motor on my old 10" Craftsman saw and it was scary powerful. It would walk right through anything I tried to cut on it. The 1 3/4 HP motor on my Craftsman hybrid saw is also up to the task.

Do you remember any problems that you had with putting the Baldor on your Craftsman? Was it a NEMA 56 frame?

The Biesmeyer fence is a joy to use. So what I'm saying is you can always upgrade to a more powerful motor and a better fence, but it may make more sense to just give up old Betsy and pop for a new saw. That's a choice you may have already made, I donno? :blink:

I don't know if I would refer to my Craftsman TS as "old Betsy". It is only a couple of years old and has worked great so far, except for the two (2) problems I mentioned. I would not mind spending $3K on a new saw, if it is going to improve my woodworking and solve my two problems. I think the Grizzly table saws that I was considering would be some improvements, but there are still benefits to the Craftsman TS that are far better than the Grizzly Table Saws. As I mentioned both Grizzly fences did not appear to be as good as the Craftsman fence that I have. I should mention, that I have modified the Craftsman fence to be much more accurate and smoother than when I purchased it. I would have to make more modifications to the Grizzly fences, especially the G1023RLWX, to meet my requirements. The G1023RLWX fence had a lot of drag on it, because of the large surface area of the pads. The G0605X1 fence was designed much better with less surface area contacting the table, that allowed less drag. Neither fence allowed a feather board to be attached without serious modifications. My current Craftsman fence actual has a hold down on the back of the table that can be engaged when using a feather board. I cut a lot of dados in boards that may not be absolutely flat on my TS. The feather board keeps the dado a consistent depth.

Those motors may be overkill for that saws's arbor bearings. You shouldn't need more than a 5/8" shaft on the motor.

Are you referring to the motor shaft size? The standard motor shaft size in my Craftsman is 1-1/8" diameter. The two Grizzly motors that I am considering have the same size shaft as my current motor.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Motor-3-HP-Single-Phase-3450-RPM-TEFC-220V-/H5388

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Motor-5-HP-Single-Phase-3450-RPM-TEFC-220V/H5390

Also the additional weight of that class of motor may not be appropriate for the motor mount. It's like stuffing a 572 cu in motor in a Vega, it can be done, but there will be addition issues.

Good point. I will have to pull my current motor out and weigh it. The shipping weight for the Grizzly motors are:
H5390 - 61 lbs.
H5388 - 55 lbs.
There is probably only a pound or two of packaging, so these numbers should be good for estimating.

If it were me, I would reconsider the G1023 and improve on the factory fence if that's a huge issue. The internals on a cabinet saw are SO much stronger than a contractor saw that there is really no comparison. Maybe the folks in the showroom will make a deal on a better fence for the G1023?

Sorry, but I don't believe my current Craftsman TS is considered a contractor saw. I believe that it falls in the hybrid category. It has complete below table dust collection and totally enclosed motor.

No, the person at Grizzly that was helping me, was NOT very helpful. He was supposed to be the "Table Saw Expert", but I have my doubts. He kept having to refer to the catalog for very simple questions. To be honest, I have had better help from a Home Depot salesperson.

Thanks for all your input. I appreciate it.

 

[FrankC]

240VAC. Thanks for pointing that out.



Interesting comment....Would you care to elaborate?

Eric

What I meant was that there are a lot of saws out there with that size motor and many people get by by with them, sometimes a different blade can make a difference in a saws performance.

Depends on what you are using the saw for I guess.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

proper blade selection in important for these 1.5 hp saws. thin kerf with the proper tooth count to the operation goes a long way to better cuts. i thought my 113 series c-man and ridgid TSs were accurately set up long ago, but burning issues convinced me otherwise. really diving into set up and use of 24T blades for ripping and 40-50T blades for CCing made all the difference. i ripped 8/4 oak for the auxiliary fence of a 3 hp '70s vintage unisaw i refurbed and sold, opting to keep my 2 emerson built contractor saws.

Toolguy:

Thanks for the good suggestion. I will see if I can find a 24T ripping blade. I usually use a Freud Avanti 40T blade for both cross cutting and ripping.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

I used to have the Craftsman 152.221240 model, which was full length cabinet and 1 3/4HP motor. Your model is smaller 1 1/2HP motor, shorter cabinet and different fence.

My 120V 1 3/4HP motor would bog down when cutting thick maple, e.g., 8/4

Some woods, like cherry can burn with any saw or blade.

I looked into getting a 2 HP 240V motor when Orion first came out with this option. They later changed the company name to Steel City Tool Works.

At one time I was able to get to the Orion Parts list for the 2 HP motor version of my table saw to compare the differences.

Sounds like my saw. What stopped you from getting the 2HP motor? Did you decide it was easier to just purchase a different table saw?

There are challenges to upgrading the motor :
a) If I recall, the motor mounting plate is not standard so you may need a motor from Steel City.
b) The arbor bearing was different.
c) The belt was different due to the arbor being different.
d) The switch is different. Needs to break both hot wires. Existing switch only breaks the single black hot wire.

Great list! I will make sure I check them out.

I recommend keeping the table saw, using different thin kerf blade as mentioned in earlier replies, or getting a 3 HP saw and selling the present saw.

After pondering the upgrade I eventually purchased a 3 HP saw and passed only saw to my best friend who is still using it.

Again....what convinced you to purchase a new saw rather than just upgrading the saw? Did you decide that points a to b above where just too much trouble? If none of the points a to b were true, would you have upgraded the motor?

Thanks for your input. It is appreciated.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

What I meant was that there are a lot of saws out there with that size motor and many people get by by with them, sometimes a different blade can make a difference in a saws performance.

Depends on what you are using the saw for I guess.

Frank:

That doesn't sound like a guess to me! It sounds like some great experience talking!

Where I notice the motor bogging is on rip cuts with hardwoods. As I mentioned in my original post, there is a very small sweet spot for feed rate vs burn rate. The faster the feed rate, the lower the burn rate. Unfortunately as soon as the motor starts bogging from the faster feed rate the burn rate goes higher also.

I have gotten some improvement by aligning my blade, miter slot and fence more accurately. At one point, my fence was about a paper width too close at the back of the saw table, compared to the front of the saw table. By adding a small paper scrap to make the back of the fence move away from the back of the blade, I was able to reduce some of the burning. I have since adjusted the fence to compensate for the paper.

I have used 40t, 50t and an 80t blade with no difference in the burning. Someone suggested trying a 24t rip blade, so I will go find one over the next week and give it a try.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[woodnthings]

You have the hybrid table saw!

I have the 22124 floor model Craftsman, and I love that saw also. It came with a Biesemeyer fence which is the best I have used. If I remember, those saws can be run on 220 V and if that's the case I would immediately switch it over.
Then get the 24 tooth Freud Diablo think kerf for ripping which I find to be the best bang for the buck at around $36.00 or so. I use one in one of the other Craftsman saws I have.

If these 2 mods don't make a big difference then it's probably time to consider a full cabinet saw, 3 HP or greater. I have the 22124 for ultra precise jobs, and sled use for miters. There are 4 saws in my shop now, each dedicated to a different use, ripping, crosscutting, dados and precision cuts. All use Freud Diablo blades with great results.

I do not rip a lot of 3" or 4" thick material on the table saw. If I needed to, I have a 12" 5HP Powermatic lurking in the other shop.
I prefer a bandsaw for ripping thick material, so a quick pass over the jointer and we are back to smooth and square.

 

[rbk123]

[/QUOTE]

Toolguy:

Thanks for the good suggestion. I will see if I can find a 24T ripping blade. I usually use a Freud Avanti 40T blade for both cross cutting and ripping.

It will be dramatically better ripping with the 24T Freud. Just wait, you'll see.

Of course crosscutting will be substantially worse...

 

[knotscott]

The G1023RL is in a different league for sure, but it's not an inexpensive move. Before trying a larger motor or new saw, I'd go for a good 24T 3/32" TK ripper.....Freud Diablo D1024, Freud LU87, Infinity 010-124, CMT 202.024.10, DW7124PT, and Irwin Marples are all good examples. Keep the blade clean and sharp. With the right blade and good alignment your saw should be able to cut reasonably well up to full blade height in most materials if the wood is flat and straight.

Should you ever pursue increasing the motor power, I wouldn't venture past 2hp....the innerds aren't made to handle more weight and torque.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

Thanks to everyone for their advice and comments!!!

I tried a new Freud LU87R010 Circular Saw Blade 10" x 5/8" Bore x 24 Tooth Flat Top Thin Kerf on ripping some oak 1/4" x 3/4" strips. Very nice! Using the ripping blade made a difference. The oak had significantly less burn marks and the motor was not bogging down.

I also readjusted my miter slots (table) to the saw blade and my fence to the miter slots. The miter slots were off about .004" and the fence was off about .007". So, the combination of them both being off may have been binding the wood between the blade and fence as the wood was exiting the back of the table.

I am assuming that the back end of the fence should be further away from the blade than the front end. What do you guys recommend for that distance? .001 - .003"??

I have to rip some 3-1/2" cedar tomorrow. I think I will use the table saw with the ripping blade instead of the bandsaw and see how it goes. I will be ripping some cherry strips next week. I will post my results then.

Thanks again for all the help,
Eric

 

[knotscott]

...I am assuming that the back end of the fence should be further away from the blade than the front end. What do you guys recommend for that distance? .001 - .003"?? ...

There's some controversy on that subject, and it's really up to you. In a perfect world, perfect fence alignment is the way to go. In the real world, there can be some margin of error in the straightness of the fence, our measuring techniques, etc....I was taught by a seasoned veteran at a woodworking show to allow some toe out of about the thickness of a folded dollar bill.....certainly no more than 0.003". Let the results guide you to any fine tuning. Note that if you use the fence on both sides of the blade, you'll want it as close to dead on as possible.

 

[ryan50hrl]

I've ripped 12/4 oak with my 1.75 hp craftsman and by using the right blade...24 tooth Freud rip...it worked great.

 

[toolguy1000]

......I am assuming that the back end of the fence should be further away from the blade than the front end. What do you guys recommend for that distance? .001 - .003"?? .......

a little patience, a $10 dial gauge and a miter gauge with no "slop" in the miter slot are all that's needed for dead on blade to miter slot, and fence to miter slot, alignment. here are a few pics of my emerson built c-man and ridgid TSs. BTW, hardwood rips are best with a 24-28T rip blade, preferably thin kerf (3/32") for 1.5hp or less TSs. i had a 40T combo blade on my saw, tried a 45° bevel rip and it wouldn't work. switched to a 28T aggressive hook angle ripping blade and my c-man handled it easily.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

a little patience, a $10 dial gauge and a miter gauge with no "slop" in the miter slot are all that's needed for dead on blade to miter slot, and fence to miter slot, alignment. here are a few pics of my emerson built c-man and ridgid TSs. BTW, hardwood rips are best with a 24-28T rip blade, preferably thin kerf (3/32") for 1.5hp or less TSs. i had a 40T combo blade on my saw, tried a 45° bevel rip and it wouldn't work. switched to a 28T aggressive hook angle ripping blade and my c-man handled it easily.

Thanks for the info and photos toolguy. Nice setup! I used my dial gauge and the A-lign It bars to hold it in the miter slot. I was able to get the table and fence within 0.001". I use the fence on both sides of the blade, so I will just try to keep the fence parallel.

The Freud LU87R010 that I got works pretty good. I still need to test it some more.

 

[ORBlackFZ1]

I've ripped 12/4 oak with my 1.75 hp craftsman and by using the right blade...24 tooth Freud rip...it worked great.

Thanks. I hope that I can eventually do the same with my 1.5HP.