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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a project I've worked on the last couple of years. Had cancer 5 years ago and found out my doctors were the Marx Bros. Needless to say, that gave me time to sit home and consider Bessler's work.
It's supposed to be impossible but figure if it works, then I could have me a hobby, like learning proper wood working techniques to improve the quality of the build.
I told one woman I know that one of the reasons for a project like this is that I became 1/2 deaf in one ear while serving in the Navy in peace time. Needless to say, people don't think I deserve a life.
Still, will be doing a little bit on this each day until it is finished. It's just that trying to think of a good way to seal bellows while using the bellow as a hinge also kind of makes things interesting.
While I would've preferred to have been in better health to have a better go of it, might as well do what I can.
Some of the math in metrics is in Bessler's drawing and of course, the picture of that thing on my work bench is what I'm building. It's based on the principle that a weighted lever can open a bellow causing it to work like a pump and draw water into it.
Like I said, this thing working is something considered impossible but thanks to my hearing loss, I needed a good challenge.
 

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NetDoc said:
Good luck with it. I don't think there's such a thing as perpetual motion (except for my cat at times), but I will be watching your progress with interest.
Yel perpetual motion! Reminds me of a coworker who said he had figured out how to keep a heat pump for freezing in the winter. He said he was going to put the outside unit in his basement. I told him you will cool the basement off and it would not work. He said he had that figured out he was going to run a heating duct back to the basement. After that I just gave up.
Tom
 

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Well, there are some folks that have had limited success with magnet motors which are a quasi type of perpetual motion machine. I even played with one in my shop last year. I'm going back to it when warm weather comes back. I'm not sure anyone can achieve perpetual motion or over-unity but more power to you if you want to experiment.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Some Info on Bessler

@All,
I'll give you some information about a guy named Johann Bessler.
He lived from about 1680 to about 1745. he was also a craftsman. He built wind mills and clocks, and in his time, they were pendulum type.
He wheels were witnessed by various people one of which was Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz helped invent calculus alongside Newton.
The link is to his drawings which number about 143, http://besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=MT_1-20

witnesses; http://besslerwheel.com/accounts.html

With myself, I like the math behind it and in those times, it could be that carpenters/wood craftsmen were also engineers.
A stair way I like with little known of the man behind it; http://www.lorettochapel.com/staircase.html

And with what I believe Bessler knew, that when a bellow opens, water will move from one to the other a greater distance than a weight drops.
This would be because it's the force that opens the bellow and the distance it travels to account for work equals mass times distance.
Except for his wheel, it would have been a more efficient pump for something like a well pump which uses vacuum as a means of being able to work.
With what I am building, most likely I will need to start over. It's simply a matter of learning how to build something like this.
I know the seal will end up being as simple as a 1/16 in. bead going into a 1/8th in. seat. And placing the bead on a support bracket will ensure it's solid.
I'll upload a drawing of the design I am pursuing. It's something I call The Rolling Cross. I'm planning it as a tribute to those serving in the U.S. military who are away from home.
The name partly comes from the Alabama song Roll On. And if the wheel is stopped with the bellows in line or 90 degrees to the wheels stand, it would form a cross, albeit one with a ring around it.
It's just that with something like this, I find it worth the time to get it right.
And a little bit of the math, if a 1 lb. weight drops 6 inches, it can develop 2 lbs. of force moving 3 inches. When 2 weights work together, only 1 weight would be out of balance. This is because the opposing weight would be 90 degrees to the axis of rotation. You see, if 2 weights are 90 degrees to a set of bellows, they are in balance.
And a bellow would only need to open about 2 inches. Since volume is 3x3/4x18 = 40.5. If a bellow is closed, it holds about 20 in.^3 of water, about 12 ounces. If it opens to 1 1/2 inches, then it holds about 36 ounces of water or 24 more ounces than the opposing bellow.
And the total weight of the water is about 3 lbs. And with a bellow having no air in it would only need a force greater that 3 lbs. to open it. The same principle a modern manual well pump works on.
Kind of why they are so efficient. http://www.survivalunlimited.com/deepwellpump.htm

Still, a wooden machine I guess can be pretty cool if it's done right. :yes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
The Rolling Cross Design

This is what I am working towards. The opposing weights would be connected by using a couple of pulleys. Of course what would be trickier is to hide their connection in the outer rim.
The bellows as I mentioned would be 3 inches wide. And having on nested in the other, their total width or depth would be about 3 3/4 inches.
As far as the hub goes, it can always be a larger diameter to cover the box that the bellows use as a header.
Myself, I think Bessler used lamp oil. If so, it has 80% the mass of water. This could change the dimensions accordingly but doubt it would be necessary. The weights doing the work could weigh less.
With lamp oil, wood might not need to be sealed or treated and if something supple like goat skin were used for the bellows, it would act as a lubricant as well.
And in his time, Bessler could have used pitch when he sewed the skin together where it is also used as a hinge for the moveable bellow tongue. Pitch would have helped seal the bellows and since it the seams length would decrease the load on it per inch, I do think he got it right.
Any way, hope you guys like this.

edited to add; a second picture showing what it might it's final design might look like when working. If the weight at bottom left has swung 3 inches out of balance, the shift in fluid across the axle/hub would have more force.
It's just that as the weight on the bottom left continues to rotate upwards, it will eventually drop. When it does, the weight on the top right will drop as well. And then the fluid in the bellow would move into upwards. And yep, a lot would be going on. Still, for wood working, I think it would be quite unique ;)
BTW, the levers going left to right and right to left would open the bellow on top. The bottom bellow closes automatically because it would be emptied.
 

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I can assure you, with 100% certainty that perpetual motion of the type mentioned here is nothing more than a myth. It would require a mechanism with 100% mechanical efficiency, of which none can exist in a universe with like ours.

That being said, I'm going to continue watching your progress intently because I love things like this. Keep us updated as to your progress.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Well, there are some folks that have had limited success with magnet motors which are a quasi type of perpetual motion machine. I even played with one in my shop last year. I'm going back to it when warm weather comes back. I'm not sure anyone can achieve perpetual motion or over-unity but more power to you if you want to experiment.

Thanks Timothy. I think something Miller Wood Works missed is that the Wright Bros. were flying planes for a couple of years before they got any recognition.
This was primarily because a guy named Langley (Langley AFB, Director of the Smithsonian Institution) failed. And if a noted scientist such as Langley could not realize flight, then it was pretty much considered impossible. Langley's planes crashed into the Potomac.
And while I could have done a crude build, for some of what I'm hoping to accomplish, that wouldn't do.
One thought with magnets is if they are angled, them the push away might be stronger than a field can resist on approach.
And for what might be a unity device, it uses magnets.
A guy named Stefan Hartmann who lives in Germany saw this in person. He owns a forum I used to post in and owns a multimedia business.

http://siarchives.si.edu/history/samual-pierpont-langley
http://www.flyingmachines.org/lang.html
 

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THe heavens provide perpetual motion in the rotation of the earth, orbit round the sun etc. However, even these are slowing down gradually.

The moon through the tides is slowing the earth rotation.
johnep
 

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Thanks Timothy. I think something Miller Wood Works missed is that the Wright Bros. were flying planes for a couple of years before they got any recognition.
This was primarily because a guy named Langley (Langley AFB, Director of the Smithsonian Institution) failed. And if a noted scientist such as Langley could not realize flight, then it was pretty much considered impossible. Langley's planes crashed into the Potomac.
And while I could have done a crude build, for some of what I'm hoping to accomplish, that wouldn't do.
One thought with magnets is if they are angled, them the push away might be stronger than a field can resist on approach.
And for what might be a unity device, it uses magnets.
A guy named Stefan Hartmann who lives in Germany saw this in person. He owns a forum I used to post in and owns a multimedia business.
Even more so, has anyone noticed what a woodworking marvel the Wright brothers plane was? It was created with rudimentary parts just like a piece of furniture. And yet it accomplished a feat the global community said was impossible.

Please be sure to post the results of the action of your gizmo when you test it. I'm fascinated...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The Science

THe heavens provide perpetual motion in the rotation of the earth, orbit round the sun etc. However, even these are slowing down gradually.

The moon through the tides is slowing the earth rotation.
johnep
John,
Generally speaking, the reason given is entropy. With this design, the shifting of fluid will create a greater effect than a weight moving to create it.
What this design does is to manipulate gravity's effect. I think what most might dislike about something like this is how long ago Bessler did it. After all, we are supposed to be more advanced today, right ?
Sometimes, there is no replacing taking the time to think things through. :thumbsup:

@All, may be returning to work around the 6th of Jan. If so, I may restart my build as I have rethought how the seals could be done. Right now, I have water proof material for the initial build.
Of course, if I "restart" the build, it would be to try to build as closely as possible to the design I posted. The one I am working on now would be for learning how to build/assemble something like this,
It's just that getting back to work would allow me to buy a few more tools to help make things easier.

James
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Starting at the Beginning

The 2 pics are of a some what crude build that I was doing. It's something I could finish so it would be like the drawing in the first post, 2 opposing bellows with 2 levers at 90 degrees. This would basically be proof that Bessler's claims are legitimate.
Something like that could work. Not sure what sense of humor everyone has but to have had a wood craftsman do what scientists say can't be done I think would be funny. You know, taking things for granted, etc.
By the way, the 2nd pic shows the axle going through the water box. This has to do with how much force is needed to move the water how quickly. This should give a good idea of how well this can work.
I do have one special build I would like to do. It would be to thank someone for being a friend. :)

James
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Even more so, has anyone noticed what a woodworking marvel the Wright brothers plane was? It was created with rudimentary parts just like a piece of furniture. And yet it accomplished a feat the global community said was impossible.

Please be sure to post the results of the action of your gizmo when you test it. I'm fascinated...

Timothy,
I'll be sure to do so. I'm kind of hoping that I can have the bellows completed by next weekend.
Sometimes when I watch shows on history, some of the wood working done is simply amazing. Of course, even some covered bridges are significant because of how they were built.

James
 

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I think the cool thing about these kind of machines is that even if they aren't true perpetual motion machines, they're still really high efficiency, which would mean that if you forgot about free energy, you could still make a stupidly efficient power generator. I mean, the standard turbine generator (the kind they use in dams and nuclear power plants and such) is probably nowhere as efficient as a machine like this. I'm surprised we don't see electricity generation that looks more like these machines.

Acer
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Charity

I think the cool thing about these kind of machines is that even if they aren't true perpetual motion machines, they're still really high efficiency, which would mean that if you forgot about free energy, you could still make a stupidly efficient power generator. I mean, the standard turbine generator (the kind they use in dams and nuclear power plants and such) is probably nowhere as efficient as a machine like this. I'm surprised we don't see electricity generation that looks more like these machines.

Acer
Acer,
I do appreciate your sarcasm. After all, people always seem to take things to seriously, especially when it is not a mainstream project like this one (double entendre if you missed it, it refers to both what I am working on and the idea in the link);
https://water.tallyfox.com/discussions/free-energy-principle

Of course, in the future, desalinated/purified water might be more important than electricity. As far as I know, everybody likes to eat. Could be wrong though :thumbsup:

edited to add; Acer, one person I mentioned who I wouldn't mind doing a special build for is someone I know from work who helped me when I was going through medical problems. It was nice having her support. She is also currently deployed as an officer in the U.S. Navy. That kind of bummed me out because I was hoping to show her what I was talking about. She's how I came up with the Rolling Cross idea, for those serving away from home. You know, like the songs says, Roll On til' you get back home and I am sure all of our Veteran's serving have a home waiting for them.
As for electrical energy generation, I told her that I have a design for wind turbines that could be 30 to 40% more efficient. And if something like that works, it could help to create some jobs for the local economy where I live and since it would be my invention, the patent rights would go to charity. Myself, I need to be able to work and if things work out for me, I wouldn't need the money. You see, I am half deaf in one ear from having served in the Navy during peace time. I have had much time to sit home by myself and read many books from physics to geography to engineering.
I also have a very mechanical background which helps.
Myself, I think because my hearing loss allowed me to be exploited that I do need to disagree with the Veteran's Administration who states that a hearing loss is not ratable because it does not place a person at a disadvantage. I think it is why I received poor quality health care.
Still, hope you stick around and learn something about different ways in which wood can be worked. For what I am doing, it will be a learning process for years to come.

edited to add; it may be possible to hide the levers and the bellows behind a removable or permament façade.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Some Bakground Info

@All,
Some background info on me. The link is to Carillon Park in Dayton, Ohio. My hometown. Am well versed in what the Wright Bros. went through.
It was often said that if God wanted man to fly, he would have given us wings. It seems instead he have us brains and if someone believes, then they might have a conscience.
With the Wind Turbine idea, I figure in a way, I would be like the Wright Bros. I could develop my own invention by getting my hands dirty building it and testing variations using a wind tunnel which the Wright Bros. used to develop their wing design.
Of course, in all of this I would be more like Bessler, could be both.
But one thing I did learn from all those summer days I spent walking through the museum at Carillon Park was how America went from a farming colony to an industrial giant.
It might surprise some people but machine shops in 1900 had one tube running through the building to power all machines.
Of course, have watched wood working shows where they showed that a wood lathe was treadle powered like those old sewing machines.
Sometimes I think people forget where America came from and how we got to be here, where we are today. It did take a lot of work by people over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
The Basic Idea

I have permission from John Collins to use his images. And I'll also send him a link to this thread. I think I am one of only 2 people who actually build anything of this type, even for those who support Bessler as I do.
What Mt 125 shows is that if a lever drops, it can open a bellow allowing vacuum to draw water from one side of a wheel to the other.
If the wheel is 3 ft. (1m) in dia., the bellow when it opens, needs to lift the water in the tube as well as the water that would fill it.
If this volume is about 1/2 gal. (2 liters), or a little over 4 lbs. (2 kg's).
The force needed to open the bellow would only need to be 5 lbs. (2.5 kg's). This is because the water is the load placed on the lever.
And this is something that unless you are manually pumping water really doesn't have much application.
But as I mentioned, it can make for a unique application in Woodworking.
And to give everyone an idea, 2 lbs. (1 kg) on a 3 ft. (1m) long lever with the lined attached to the bellow 15 in. (40cm) from the fulcrum would generate 5 lbs. (2.5kg's) of force if the weight drops 6.25 in. (15,625cm's).
And having 2 lbs. (1kg) shift upwards 36 inches (1m) by a weight dropping 6 1/4 (15 5/8cm's) is something that really isn't supposed to happen. And in Mt 125, it would be a slow shift because of the small diameter of the connecting tube.

p.s., with a weight moving 6 inches off center and the weight it's moving to a position about 18 in. off center. And this is using vacuum not compression. Compression would require much more energy to do the same work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Acer, I do owe you a bit of thanks. I do have some other idea's I'd like to see happen and you reminded me that if I don't stick with what I'm working on, then it'd be a while before anything happens.

@All, one of the differences between vacuum and compression is if water is being siphoned through a tube, then the relationship of the surface area to bellow wouldthe have the same relationship to how much time it would take to siphon water. An example of this is if the surface area of the bellow is 15 sq. in. and the siphon tube has a surface area of 1 sq. in. It's a 15 to 1 ratio. And since the lever is gravity powered, it would move at 1/15th the acceleration of gravity.
And since pressure is the inverse, it would take 15 times the force to pump the same water at the same speed. This is because pressure would be applied to 14 sq. in. that is not preforming work but would only be creating resistance. And that's the difference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
@All,
Will most likely start my build over. And since I am off work because I injured my hand, it'd be best for me to wait until I'm healthy enough to return to work.

Jim

edited to add; doubt it matters but almost cut off 3 fingers trying to work through my medical situation. One may need amputation, don't know yet. Do know I fractured my middle finger because of the pain of my first medical situation.
That's after I almost cut it off. Still, can work with one hand better than most people can work with 2. My hearing loss is a capability :yes:
 
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