1 - 20 of 46 Posts

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
Hi All,
Since I am going to start building this, I thought I would post it in here. Bessler lived a long time ago and left drawings and some books he wrote about his supposed inventions.
His claim was that he invented perpetual motion. with this build, I will be testing a basic hypothesis. I will give the dimensions that I am building to as a reference.
The 2 levers will each be 20 inches long from fulcrum to the center of mass for the weight. I will be using a 1 lb. weight on each lever. This will generate 20 in. lbs. if force.
Because of the way the levers are tethered together, they will generate 20 in. lbs. of force to open the upper bellow with. And if Mr. Bessler's claims are true, then by using 20 in. lbs. of force to syphon 30 oz.'s of water (10 oz.'s in the tube and 20 oz.'s in the bellow) is possible.
If so, then this would suggest that the movement in opening the bellow is what is considered as work in this concept. Kind of like drinking soda through a straw. The outside air is moving the soda through the straw because of a difference in pressure.

Jim

#### Attachments

• 5.7 KB Views: 441

#### Mark89

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
James, just so you know, there's been many many many claims by people saying they've designed or built a perpetual motion machine, and none of them have actually been such. Have fun with your project nonetheless.

#### epicfail48

·
Joined
·
5,338 Posts
You know, as much as I like building things, I have to question why you'd want to spend the time building something that's thermodynamically impossible to have work

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
You know, as much as I like building things, I have to question why you'd want to spend the time building something that's thermodynamically impossible to have work

Hopefully every 180 degrees of rotation when both levers drop, water will be pumped / siphoned to the top.

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
p.s., I told a gal I know I'd build her, actually have built for her a custom wheel. And since that one is based on pumping water, this is to see if the basic idea is possible. I'm a novice wood worker. But if I am successful with this build, then PBS might be interested in Bessler and his work.
One thing I wish I would've thought of is to have built a bellow and see how much force is needed
to siphon water up a 20 in. tube and also how long it takes. And since I do need bellows, I can try that once I have the outside of the wheels routed which might be tonight.

#### Attachments

• 70 KB Views: 112

#### tinstar

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
99 Posts
Warm up the DeLorean Dr. Brown, we're going back to 2013.

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
:-(

Warm up the DeLorean Dr. Brown, we're going back to 2013.

tinstar,
I am sorry to inform you that back to back Miami Championship Banners are no longer available. Of course, Chicago Cubs fans are saying not next year, now ! They've been saying that for what ? 98 years ? Just sayin'... :blink:

Still, with pumping water, theoretically, only a 33.9 foot depth is possible because then 14.7 psi minus 14.7 psi equals no force. Yet
a pump can take suction on a well over 100 feet deep. This just means that the mass of water is calculated as load and not as vacuum. And with what I am building, I will not be surprised if
W = MD, you know, work equals mass times distance.
And in this situation it would be the amount of force times distance to open the bellow on top. The height the water needs to be lifted might only slow how quickly the bellow opens because pipes act as an orifice in this design and restrict flow.
And I guess with Bessler, his work would be like a blast from the past, then again, maybe some examples of his wood working might be around today. He also built windmills, grandfather clocks, etc. :yes:

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
@all,
With what I am building, a 20 inch tall, 1 inch dia. pvc pipe holds about 10 oz.'s of water.
This translates to about 0.5 psi of force. And for a bellow to open, it needs to have more
force acting on it per square inch. An example is if the bellow has a surface area of 10 sq. in.,
it would need more than 5 lbs. of force trying to open it.
This is the mistake that most people would make because even 3 lbs. of force is more than 10 oz.'s.

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
I placed one lever closer to where it's actual position will be. One unique aspect is how torque applies to this design. This weekend, I
will post some basic math on the bellows and force. I'll do separate posts for SAE and metric.
The volume of water the bellows will hold will be about the same as the weights that I am using. It might take me a little time to make the bellows as bellows are usually allowed to leak some.
I could place the bellows side by side (as viewed from the top) and may do so. This would allow them to counter balance each other.

#### Attachments

• 46.8 KB Views: 360

#### Kenbo

·
##### HALL OF FAMER
Joined
·
8,518 Posts
I'm thinking that this could be a very interesting build. It definitely has some potential to generate discussion on the subject as well as provide some entertainment along the way. I hope that when it is all said and done, successful or not, you will post a video of your project. Either way, I will be tuned in to see how it goes. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the build.

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
The drawing shows what hopefully be usable bellows. For a seal, I am going to rout grooves in the bellow and a mating board. The bellow will have a volume of about 14 cubic inches above it's volume
when closed.
If the levers from center of fulcrum to center of mass for the lead weights that I am using is 19 inches, @ 5 1/4 inches from the fulcrum, a force of about 3 1/2 lbs. is generated. With 2 weights working together as in shown in Bessler's drawing (the red line shows how the 2 levers can work as one for maximum work), 7 lbs. of force can be generated.
And since the volume of water in the riser pipe requires a force greater than about 0.5 psi, the bellows as I have designed them have 12 in.^2 of surface area that is movable. This means that 6 lbs. of force is equal to the force a column of water will exert on the pressure/vacuum inside the bellow.
And with the 2 levers working together, a drop of 3 5/8 in. is all that will be needed. And a simple force calculation, the same amount of weight will be moved about 3 times further from center.
By adjusting the weights position on the levers, it may be possible to time for a some what continuous rotation if things work out.

#### Attachments

• 42 KB Views: 104
• 39.1 KB Views: 369

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
Am kind of hoping my conversions into the metric system are accurate :smile:

The drawing shows what hopefully be usable bellows. For a seal, I am going to rout grooves in the bellow and a mating board. The bellow will have a volume of about 14 cubic inches above it's volume
when closed.
If the levers from center of fulcrum to center of mass for the lead weights that I am using is 48.25 cm's, @ 13.35 cm's from the fulcrum, a force of about 1.6 kg's is generated. With 2 weights working together as in shown in Bessler's drawing (the red line shows how the 2 levers can work as one for maximum work), 3.2 kg's of force can be generated.
And since the volume of water in the riser pipe requires a force greater than about 0.035 cm^2, the bellows as I have designed them have 77.5 cm^2 of surface area that is movable. This means that 2.75 kg's of force is equal to the force a column of water will exert on the pressure/vacuum inside the bellow.
And with the 2 levers working together, a drop of 9.25 cm's is all that will be needed. And a simple force calculation, the same amount of weight will be moved about 3 times further from center.
By adjusting the weights position on the levers, it may be possible to time for a some what continuous rotation if things work out.

#### Attachments

• 41.5 KB Views: 87
• 39.1 KB Views: 353

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
@All,
While I use the bellow opening 2 in./5 cm as a refernce, with the weights dropping 3 5/8 in./9.25 cm's, the bellow will open only 1 in./2.5 cm. This will allow for adjustments to be made.

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
@All,
I am going to build 2 basic bellows. Bellows used in this way may simply use hydraulic theory.
And this is to lift 20 oz.'s of water may only require 20 oz.'s of force. If pressure based on the surface area natters, then that will become known.
My other build has been taking up my time but will start on the bellows today. I have a stand tall enough for trying the bellows on.

Jim

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
Then the bellows could be weighted.While the diagram seems simple, it is. When the top bellow opens, it lowers. The pressure head will always have the same height. It's position will change depending on the open and closed position of the bellows.
And while Mt 125 is a simple drawing, something basic is over looked. The volume of water in the pressure head is all that matters.
When water is drawn into the bellow above the level of the axle, the only water being lifted is what is in the pressure head.
The pressure head might actually be from where one bellow connects to the riser pipe and the furthest point away in the other bellow.
Yet if you notice, a bellow does not open in the upward direction. And if a column of water in a pressure head has a volume of 20 in.^3 or 320 cc's, it may only take a slight heavier weight to lift it.
This is why I am building test bellows for. To see if it is just the greater mass that matters. If so, then as a bellow expands, it would allow for a significant shift in mass.
And that will help with this build if several lbs. of force or a couple kg's are needed. Then the bellows could be weighted. This would reduce the work the levers need to perform.

#### Attachments

• 16.6 KB Views: 329

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
I'm thinking that this could be a very interesting build. It definitely has some potential to generate discussion on the subject as well as provide some entertainment along the way. I hope that when it is all said and done, successful or not, you will post a video of your project. Either way, I will be tuned in to see how it goes. Good luck. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the build.
Thanks Kenbo.
One thing I have come to realize is that there is another way to configure pumps. One example is a manual well pump. The primary work it performs is in lifting water. Something like that I think is what would grab peoples attention. It could rotate more quickly and at the same time have a much better appearance.
With bellows, in a way, it would be too old timey or mechanical. I've watched shows like wood smith shop and Rough Cuts, between those shows and some of the work I have seen in here, I have an idea of what can be done with wood and am aware that I have a ways to go and much to learn.

Jim

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
@All,
The link is to a facebook page I started for showing the work I am doing on Johann Bessler's Mt 125 drawing. Bellows are unique as usually they are allowed to leak.
With the drawing, it shows how a manual type well pump can be used to move water around the inside of a wheel. it is the direction I will be going in with Bessler's work.
What people over look with a design like this is that all the weights cancel each other out. Yet when a weight on a lever drops, it can pump water upward. While it is a basic principle, to use something like this in a water wheel made out of wood, it needs to be thought of a little bit differently. The simple reason is that if the water doesn't move, then all of the force of the dropping weight is causing the wheel to rotate. and with multiple weights, they would store momentum.
And with this type of building, I would say the seals are one of the more difficult aspects but do know from what I've built that it's all a challenge.

It helps me to stay motivated build wise to show the little details as I figure them out. Bellows usually are not constructed to keep air out and water in while working in tandem, you know, what one is doing, the other is doing the opposite thing.

Jim

#### Attachments

• 32.4 KB Views: 109

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
The picture shows where I'm at with my bellows. The movable face will move towards the opposing bellow. Where the bellow has a flange by the riser pipe, that is for mounting the bellow assembly to the rims. I am going to add a cover plate for the holes that allow for room for water to move into the bellow.
At the same time, that will allow for a sturdy mounting. I will be using a double compression seal. This will allow me to use screws between 2 dowels and have firm seating. When I get to that point, I'll post a picture of it.

#### Attachments

• 67.5 KB Views: 90

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
The 2 pictures show capping the water port. When water flows from the pipe into the bellow, it needs sufficient space to flow quickly. I have water sealer I can apply after I've assembled the bellows. I will install a fill valve so that the volume of water in the system can be lowered or raised.
Later today, I will start on the other bellow. Once this current step is finished, I'll be able to add pieces so I can rout the seats for the seals and then will be able to finish the bellows.
And with something like this, if it works out, then in the future, it would be more about wood working. I could show pictures from a few years ago but if someone doesn't find Bessler's work interesting, it really won't matter. And those people are few.
This is a for fun question. If a lever generates 9.8 n-m's of force and when it drops 15 to 20 cm's and does 2.45 to 4.9 n-m's of work, how much angular momentum can be generated ? This is something Bessler knew.
And with me, I have told one woman I will see about having PBS discuss with it's wood working programs to build it. Kind of why if this Mt 125 build works, I think I'll have their attention. Although I think with some of their programs, they make it all seem so easy but just as experienced people in this forum know, when you know what you're doing, it usually is.

#### Attachments

• 44.8 KB Views: 88

#### James.Lindgaard

·
##### Banned
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
With Mt 125, there are a few considerations. One is the pressure head. Since the bellows open inward towards
the axle, when the pressure head moves, it's height doesn't change.
With a 1 inch diameter pipe (1" dia.), a pipe (riser pipe) 20 inches tall (20" L), it will hold about 9 oz.'s of water.
Why this matters is because a diameter of 1 inch (1"), it has a surface area of about 3/4" (0.75 square inches). This means
that the force acting on the volume of the bellow is about 12 oz.'s per square inch (12 oz./psi). And this means that
the force acting on the bellow needs to be greater than 12 ounces (12 oz.'s).
The lower bellow really doesn't do anything when water is being moved to the top bellow. The problem is if the bellow
has a surface area of 12 inches (12 in^2, limber is often measured by the foot, it's a linear measurement that has more
than the length of the board, it's a reference).
And when a bellow pumps, if the ratio of it's surface area to it's opening, then 3/4:12 shows how much work is required to
pump water by compression. And since 12/.75= 16, then to pump water by closing the bottom bellow would be
12 oz.'s x 16= 12 lbs. of force.
Yet because weights drop because of gravity, no one thinks that a pump can work more efficiently by drawing water upwards
when in this instance, it can. And when someone realizes this, then they can consider the work being performed by a lever
dropping and the shift in force by the force of water in a bellow being shifted from one side of the wheel to the other. And if
someone is willing to do some basic math and calculate leveraged force and the volume of a bellow both open and closed, it's
not that difficult, it does take some time working at it though.

p.s., the symbol in the drawing most likely is a reference to Freemasons who require a belief in God
to be a member. It could be Bessler's way of saying believe.

p.s.s., 1 ounce equals about 28.5 grams

#### Attachments

• 49.1 KB Views: 271
1 - 20 of 46 Posts