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3,180 Posts
that concept pretty much describes how a 240 vac circuit works. with one exception, the circuit breaker(s) feeding that circuit, must be ganged so that if one trips, they both trip.
Adding a single 240v plug for a table saw
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"So who are you calling out as incorrect? The author of post #21 or the info from post#19?
Seems to me TimPA in #21 (his words are typed in red) is saying the same thing you are. "
My bad, and my sincere apologies to TimPa. Post #19 is the bad information. Mr.Pa is on track. I just don't get it when people who do not know what they are talking about try to act like they know what they are talking about. If you get bad information in woodworking, your finished results might be poor. If you get bad information in plumbing you may ruin your carpet or get wet. If you get bad information with electrical installations or troubleshooting, you run the risk of killing you and your family.
There are plenty of people out there with the skills to DIY some of their electrical installations. Some folks know more than others, some folks less. But some people THINK they know more than others. Example: to arbitrarily say that #14 is rated for 15 amps and #12 is rated for 20 amps is not exactly right. NFPA 70 (NEC) ampacity tables list #14 for 20 amps and #12 for 25 amps with 60C insulation. It's even higher than that with 90C insulation. NEC limits overcurrent protection of those sizes, and #10 AWG to 15, 20, and 30 amps respectively for a good deal of installations. There are many exceptions in NEC to that rule of thumb. There are times where #10 AWG may be protected with a 50 amp breaker. Those kinds of things are often done in HVAC installations.
My point is that just because you put in your own receptacle last year, that does not qualify you as an expert. It qualifies you as successful last year. Anyone who needs to ask questions about wire sizes, overcurrent protection, or installation techniques should get answers from an expert, especially when those people are so easy to consult. That in turn will make them successful. And safe. I won’t ask an electrician how to turn a pen, I’ll ask you guys. It only follows that the responsible replies to inquiries in which you are not an expert is to send that person to an expert. Everybody wins.
Seems to me TimPA in #21 (his words are typed in red) is saying the same thing you are. "
My bad, and my sincere apologies to TimPa. Post #19 is the bad information. Mr.Pa is on track. I just don't get it when people who do not know what they are talking about try to act like they know what they are talking about. If you get bad information in woodworking, your finished results might be poor. If you get bad information in plumbing you may ruin your carpet or get wet. If you get bad information with electrical installations or troubleshooting, you run the risk of killing you and your family.
There are plenty of people out there with the skills to DIY some of their electrical installations. Some folks know more than others, some folks less. But some people THINK they know more than others. Example: to arbitrarily say that #14 is rated for 15 amps and #12 is rated for 20 amps is not exactly right. NFPA 70 (NEC) ampacity tables list #14 for 20 amps and #12 for 25 amps with 60C insulation. It's even higher than that with 90C insulation. NEC limits overcurrent protection of those sizes, and #10 AWG to 15, 20, and 30 amps respectively for a good deal of installations. There are many exceptions in NEC to that rule of thumb. There are times where #10 AWG may be protected with a 50 amp breaker. Those kinds of things are often done in HVAC installations.
My point is that just because you put in your own receptacle last year, that does not qualify you as an expert. It qualifies you as successful last year. Anyone who needs to ask questions about wire sizes, overcurrent protection, or installation techniques should get answers from an expert, especially when those people are so easy to consult. That in turn will make them successful. And safe. I won’t ask an electrician how to turn a pen, I’ll ask you guys. It only follows that the responsible replies to inquiries in which you are not an expert is to send that person to an expert. Everybody wins.
That's the
That's the reason I ask my ectrician buddies..They even told me which box and where the sales were...
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3,180 Posts
no worries!
been in the electrical and electronic field since '74. USAF then 20 years with Lockheed Martin. seen the engineering side and the real world side (contracted for 15 years).
but every time an electrical thread pops up, i say no, i'm not going in... but then when i see wrong information, much like yourself, i feel like i need to say something, or readers will be misinformed. we are all just here to try to help each other.
You sound like my brother. He's retired from the Air Force after 22 years and went back to work for the Air Force as a subcontractor working on the electrictronics on spy planes. He
left on a Friday as an on board tech in the air and became a ground tech on Monday.
.
He retires in 1.5 years. He will have spent his entire electonics career working on these planes..
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2,346 Posts
Industrial and residential electrician as well as electronic background. Just thought I'd point out - yes, some poor advice mixed with helpful comments, BUT - even among the best qualified electricians there are still discussions over what is the best way to do something.
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71 Posts
Ouch! Seem to be taking a beating on the last couple of post I have commented on. Guess I need to be more careful of my wording. Although the terminology I used was off I stand by the answers I gave the poster as being appropriate and safe. Let me explain further The saw is rated at 14 amps, so a 20 amp double pole breaker will do fine and will fit in the space of the 2 50 amp breakers. The 12-2 wire needs to be 12-2 romex and will have a black, white and bare copper wire. The 20 amp double pole breaker is designed to deliver 110 volts to the black wire and 110 volts to the white wire from each the two 110 volt wires that feed the service box. The copper wire goes to the same place as all the other copper wires in the panel box. A 220 receptacle rated for 20 amps will have a lug on each side. The black wire goes in one side and the white goes in the other, doesn't matter which they are both 110 and are not polarized. There is an additional screw for the bare copper wire on the receplicle. As long as you make sure the main breaker is off and stay away from the lugs on top of the main fed from the meter you will be fine. If anyone thinks this is a problem in anyway please feel free to let me know.
Once again, you need to be careful how you word your advice.
"The 12-2 wire needs to be 12-2 romex and will have a black, white and bare copper wire."
This isn't necessarily so. NEC makes many exceptions as to uses permitted and uses not permitted for NM cable. Also many local agencies limit the use of NM cable. Most jurisdictions do not permit NM cable to be run exposed unless in a ceiling joist or wall cavity area. Read NFPA 70 334.12- 334.15. The poster may be in a jurisdiction that requires conduit and single conductor wiring. This may sound to some of you like splitting hairs, but it is not. If everyone just did like they wanted, think of the predicament we'd all be in. The rules are there to keep you and your family alive and well. If you won't find out what the rules really are and follow them, you sure as heck don't give a rats behind about your family.
A professional that comes from the posters area can give him the straight dope on EXACTLY what to do to make it safe and right. Don't trust DIY advice!
"The 12-2 wire needs to be 12-2 romex and will have a black, white and bare copper wire."
This isn't necessarily so. NEC makes many exceptions as to uses permitted and uses not permitted for NM cable. Also many local agencies limit the use of NM cable. Most jurisdictions do not permit NM cable to be run exposed unless in a ceiling joist or wall cavity area. Read NFPA 70 334.12- 334.15. The poster may be in a jurisdiction that requires conduit and single conductor wiring. This may sound to some of you like splitting hairs, but it is not. If everyone just did like they wanted, think of the predicament we'd all be in. The rules are there to keep you and your family alive and well. If you won't find out what the rules really are and follow them, you sure as heck don't give a rats behind about your family.
A professional that comes from the posters area can give him the straight dope on EXACTLY what to do to make it safe and right. Don't trust DIY advice!
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Thank you, Epic
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71 Posts
WOW! I can't believe that such a simple and straight forward project that would take less that an hour to complete has become sooo complicated. Once again I stand by the method I described as safe and appropriate.
Shop rat... If you will look at the pictures the original poster sent you will see that the house was wired using Romex cable, so I highly doubt there would be any problem. After re reading Chamerican's post I did see where he was talking about running external wires whereas I was talking about running them internally. All you need to do so is a clip box and 1/2" Romex connectors. Chamerican... If you have not already completed the project message me and I would be happy to talk you through it
Shop rat... If you will look at the pictures the original poster sent you will see that the house was wired using Romex cable, so I highly doubt there would be any problem. After re reading Chamerican's post I did see where he was talking about running external wires whereas I was talking about running them internally. All you need to do so is a clip box and 1/2" Romex connectors. Chamerican... If you have not already completed the project message me and I would be happy to talk you through it
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1 Posts
I ran into almost the same situation when I got my Grizzly 10" 3 HP G0690 saw- virtually identical to yours. First I downloaded the manual and the specs. The manual was VERY clear on the wiring specs, which I followed to the letter. I only had [going to the garage] a single circuit 240 outlet to the electric clothes dryer, run off of two 30amp breakers- ganged together. This led to a outlet dryer plug and consisted of: 1 red wire (120v), 1 black wire (120v), 1white neutral wire, and one copper ground- all terminating in a standard dryer 3-outlet with ground- (4 wires in total). The factory wired-in male plug for the saw consists of 3 wires in total: 1 red, 1 black and one ground- NO white neutral. the plug consists of 1 vertical slot, 1 horizontal slot and one ground slot, and the instructions called out the same for the outlet receptacle to be used by the plug. with no white neutral wire involved. Because it is AC power, this is possible, and the factory wiring diagram, which I followed confirmed this. So...
According to code, the dryer circuit must be dedicated, that is, that circuit may only be used to power the dryer by itself. What to do, instead of putting in a sub-panel, etc.?? I temporarily, disconnected the dryer outlet; kept the white neutral to be reconnected to the outlet later; ran the other three wires- red, black, ground- to a junction box, and ran two other sets [ one 10-2, and one 12-2- red, black, ground]- to two lever-operated on/off fused switch boxes- oriented in such a way that the outputs of the switch boxes (all grounded, btw) would always be opposite each other- the boxes were bolted together so that when one was ON, the other was OFF. The 3 wire [black, red, ground] 10-2 output of box A went back to the dryer outlet, where it was [re-joined] by the white neutral wire, and re-connected to the original dryer wall outlet. The other output of Box B (red, black, ground) wire-became 12-2 NM Romex and enclosed it in conduit for safety and neatness; then I ran it to the Grizzly-designated outlet on the garage wall for the saw. So, with the boxes bolted together opposite each other, I can EITHER have power TO -and ONLY TO- the clothes dryer (protected by- in its own box A- with a screw-in 30 amp fuse) OR through Box B the saw outlet with a 20 amp screw-in fuse in that box. So, that solved the problem for my using one dual-ganged set of 30amp Breakers, to power either the clothes dryer, or the saw outlet. The lever switch boxes I got from the big orange store. I hope this helps clear up your problem. I love the saw, btw, after setting it up. I have yet to install an optional slider attachment, and am hopeful as to that outcome. I tuned the fence fore-and-aft to a gnat's whisker, and am very happy with the results. Pending an eventual 240V sub-panel installation in the garage, I plan to use my same "saw" outlet to powering any one of: a coming Grizzly 240V bandsaw, or a large 80 gallon 240V compressor, and maybe an 8" 240V parallelogram jointer. Time will tell, or course. Good Luck, and kind regards.
Paragraphs were invented for a reason. That reason being that they made reading easier. I cannot believe that anyone would read this one paragraph post.
George
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If it bothers you, just skip over it. Nobody is forcing you to read it.
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2,346 Posts
Would have been a he!! of a lot easier to just install a small sub panel, and take outlets off that.
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@divingfewood welcome to the forum. Does your nick mean you dive for ironwood?
@GeorgeC if you zoom in and/or narrow your browser window it shortens the lines of text, easier to read.
@GeorgeC if you zoom in and/or narrow your browser window it shortens the lines of text, easier to read.
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162 Posts
I don't recall who created this. I only have a copy to paste, here.
Sonny
I think its time for me to explain about 240 current and why it is so
different from 120 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly, it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 240 is really two
120 volt lines coming to your house from different parts of the globe.
The up and down 120 comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down
and up version comes from below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction
water flows when it goes down the drain. In the top of the earth, it
goes clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter
clockwise. Since most electricity is made from hydro dams, the
clockwise flow gives you an up and down sine wave, while the
counterclockwise version gives you a down and up sine wave. Between
the two, you have 240 volts, while either individual side only gives
you 120 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools --
which side of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian
saw, for instance, it will turn backwards if connected to a US
generated 120 volt source. Sure, you can buy backwards blades for it,
but that is an unnecessary burden. Other appliances, like toasters
cannot be converted from Australian electricity to American
electricity. I knew one person who bought an Australian toaster by
mistake and it froze the slices of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 240 and accidentally get two US-generated
120 volt lines run in by accident, you can get 240 by using a trick I
learned from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own
fuse box and then turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert
one of the two up and down sine waves to down and up, giving you 240.
DO NOT just turn the box sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts
and you'll be limited to just using Canadian tools with it.
Sonny
I think its time for me to explain about 240 current and why it is so
different from 120 volt service. First of all, it's twice as big.
Secondly, it'll shock you more. Outside of that, 240 is really two
120 volt lines coming to your house from different parts of the globe.
The up and down 120 comes from the northern hemisphere, and the down
and up version comes from below the equator.
Without trying to get technical, it all boils down to the direction
water flows when it goes down the drain. In the top of the earth, it
goes clockwise, while on the bottom of the earth it goes counter
clockwise. Since most electricity is made from hydro dams, the
clockwise flow gives you an up and down sine wave, while the
counterclockwise version gives you a down and up sine wave. Between
the two, you have 240 volts, while either individual side only gives
you 120 volts.
This is particularly important to know when buying power tools --
which side of the globe did they come from? If you get an Australian
saw, for instance, it will turn backwards if connected to a US
generated 120 volt source. Sure, you can buy backwards blades for it,
but that is an unnecessary burden. Other appliances, like toasters
cannot be converted from Australian electricity to American
electricity. I knew one person who bought an Australian toaster by
mistake and it froze the slices of bread she put in it.
If you wire your shop with 240 and accidentally get two US-generated
120 volt lines run in by accident, you can get 240 by using a trick I
learned from an old electrician. Just put each source into its own
fuse box and then turn one of the boxes upside down. That'll invert
one of the two up and down sine waves to down and up, giving you 240.
DO NOT just turn the box sideways, since that'll give you 165 volts
and you'll be limited to just using Canadian tools with it.
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289 Posts
I did not read it.
Hopefully, people DID read my post as they need to learn how to write so that others can read.
George
It's a option, but then the regulars would start throwing codes off the internet.
Do we have a certified electrician on here?
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