Seeking Joinery Advice - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 09-21-2016, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Question Seeking Joinery Advice

Hello All,

I thought I would take the opportunity to practice some joinery that I haven't tried before while building this band saw table.
Okay, I confess, I've only ever jointed using nails and screws

I'd like to use a method of joinery that holds up to the expansion and contraction of the wood over time (I know, if done right, nail/screws could do this but I would like to try something else). I was thinking using mortise and tenons to join the red and blue but then what would be a good way to join the yellow to the blue? Also, I thought of using dowels for the table top but I'm not sure of the best way to join the green to the red/blue afterwards?

Also, using a mortise and tenon for the joint that's on an angle seems like it would be a huge pain??
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-Colbi
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post #2 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 04:05 AM
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I don't see why yellow and blue could not also be a mortise and tenon? Maybe put it above or below the other joint if you are worried about there not being enough room.

For the others I got nothing. I'm still learning all this stuff as well.
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post #3 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 07:15 AM
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Make the tenons on the red parts long enough you could dowel the yellow parts where the dowels go through the tenons. This would help strengthen the red/blue joint.

If the green pieces are to be glued together as a solid sheet, this is where you will run into trouble with wood movement. To solve this problem you might run some narrow dado's in the top parts yellow and red and use table top fasteners to mount the top. http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fas...gnPhoCBLnw_wcB If the top were plywood which would be better for this application then wood movement wouldn't be an issue.
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post #4 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 07:41 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodrat View Post
I don't see why yellow and blue could not also be a mortise and tenon? Maybe put it above or below the other joint if you are worried about there not being enough room.

For the others I got nothing. I'm still learning all this stuff as well.


I forgot to mention I was thinking about putting a shelf on the bottom for the bandsaw motor to sit on. Thanks for the input though, always welcome!

-Colbi

Last edited by cstowers; 09-22-2016 at 07:55 AM.
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post #5 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Make the tenons on the red parts long enough you could dowel the yellow parts where the dowels go through the tenons. This would help strengthen the red/blue joint.

If the green pieces are to be glued together as a solid sheet, this is where you will run into trouble with wood movement. To solve this problem you might run some narrow dado's in the top parts yellow and red and use table top fasteners to mount the top. http://www.rockler.com/table-top-fas...gnPhoCBLnw_wcB If the top were plywood which would be better for this application then wood movement wouldn't be an issue.


Thanks Steve!

I like the idea of using the dowels after I mortise and tenon the other joint. And the table top clips are great to (thanks for link!)

-Colbi

Last edited by cstowers; 09-22-2016 at 07:55 AM.
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post #6 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 11:21 AM
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I totally understand your interest in using the saw stand as a learning project for M&T joints, but the increased time you put into the stand could be used on another project.
A well built stand with 3 1/4" screws will be strong and last your lifetime.
If you insist on the M&T's, it will take 10 times longer. Just saying....

If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #7 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
I totally understand your interest in using the saw stand as a learning project for M&T joints, but the increased time you put into the stand could be used on another project.

A well built stand with 3 1/4" screws will be strong and last your lifetime.

If you insist on the M&T's, it will take 10 times longer. Just saying....


You make a compelling point. Hmmmm


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-Colbi
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post #8 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
I totally understand your interest in using the saw stand as a learning project for M&T joints, but the increased time you put into the stand could be used on another project.
A well built stand with 3 1/4" screws will be strong and last your lifetime.
If you insist on the M&T's, it will take 10 times longer. Just saying....
He makes a very compelling point, and in fact it was the same point i was going to make. A tenon on an angled piece in enough of a pain to make, to say nothing of how much of a nightmare the angled mortise would be to cut. It's shop furniture, there's no reason it needs to look pretty. Slap some screws in and call it a day, then get to building the furniture!

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post #9 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 04:53 PM
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keep it simple ....

Just lap the braces on top of the legs, cut at the same angles and use some screws to join them. Everything will look the same as your sketch, well almost, and will be just as strong. :smile3:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-22-2016 at 05:00 PM.
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post #10 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 05:53 PM
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....You make a compelling point. Hmmmm

but, you set out to drain the swamp - not measure how deep it is.
absolutely zilch wrong with futzing around to learn the do's and do not's of a method, technique, tool.
works for women as well....

go'fer'it.

my only comment would be the casters. I use them widely. mounting on an angle will be tricky - do prototype the design . . .

oh, don't follow their directions about how high to mount them. I've found sticking a 1/2 inch board under the feet then measuring up from on-the-flat lever position works splendidly.
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post #11 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 05:54 PM
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You say you want to try something different. Now it seems you might not want to go to all the time and trouble. On the other hand, you will be looking at that saw and stand for a long time, and you might like a little extra pride of ownership. If that's still the case, you might try this approach-
A "corner bridle joint", with one additional simplification: Loose Tenons.
Check out the corner bridle joint on this site:
http://www.raygirling.com/wwjoints.htm

Now imagine that joint, but with the grooves on both sides, and the tongues or tenons made from some other material. To make the grooves, best would be a table saw, but if you are any good with that bandsaw you could cut all the grooves with that, say 3/4" opening, then cut up some 3/4" ply or some 1" x 4"s to get the tongues. Then glue the tongues into both grooves. One thing you will discover is that a mechanical joint like this is so much stronger than screws that even if it's not very good it can still work great.
If the joints turn out tight use regular wood glue, if kinda loose mix up some epoxy to fill the gap and glue at the same time.
I think something like this would be a better step than trying to go all the way from nails to M&T joints, this is sort of a step along the way.
Whatever you do, best of luck.
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post #12 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 08:10 PM
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Most of the comments say the same thing I would, mortise and tenons will be a lot of work with the angles, and very difficult to get right. Assuming you're a beginner from your first comments, I'd do a half-lap joint with glue and screws. That's something you could do with a circular saw.
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post #13 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Seeking Joinery Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian(J) View Post

A "corner bridle joint", with one additional simplification: Loose Tenons.

Check out the corner bridle joint on this site:

http://www.raygirling.com/wwjoints.htm



Now imagine that joint, but with the grooves on both sides, and the tongues or tenons made from some other material. To make the grooves, best would be a table saw, but if you are any good with that bandsaw you could cut all the grooves with that, say 3/4" opening, then cut up some 3/4" ply or some 1" x 4"s to get the tongues. Then glue the tongues into both grooves.

Whatever you do, best of luck.

Thank you Brian for your detailed response. From your explanation above, and from the link. It seems like it would be something of a spline joint (just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly)? Also, for the 3rd joint, would I just use dowels to join to the bridle joint?

Hopefully I'm not too far off here lol. Thanks again for your response.

-Colbi



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-Colbi

Last edited by cstowers; 09-22-2016 at 10:26 PM.
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post #14 of 20 Old 09-22-2016, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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Seeking Joinery Advice

Thank you all for the great advise you've given me regarding the stand I'm building. As soon as I get it together I'll post some pictures showing what I decided to do (or at least what I ended up with lol).

-Colbi


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-Colbi
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post #15 of 20 Old 09-23-2016, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstowers View Post
Thank you Brian for your detailed response. From your explanation above, and from the link. It seems like it would be something of a spline joint (just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly)? Also, for the 3rd joint, would I just use dowels to join to the bridle joint?

Hopefully I'm not too far off here lol. Thanks again for your response.

-Colbi
Colbi, I see I didn't provide you with a complete design. I'll try to sketch something up and I'll post it to the thread.
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post #16 of 20 Old 09-23-2016, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cstowers View Post
I forgot to mention I was thinking about putting a shelf on the bottom for the bandsaw motor to sit on. Thanks for the input though, always welcome!
I would close the cabinet in then. if not, the motor and shelf will continuously be covered in much sawdust.
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post #17 of 20 Old 09-23-2016, 01:47 PM
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I say go for it, you will have give or take $20 invested, better to practice on that than $200 worth of hardwood for a piece of furniture.

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
― Marcus Aurelius
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post #18 of 20 Old 09-30-2016, 07:09 PM
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Why do the legs need to be angled? If it's your front attempt at mortise and tenons, it'd be way easier to make the stand with all square joints. Just make it wider of you're worried about it tipping over. As long as it's not so wide that you're bumping our knees when you are sawing, what's the difference? Then your casters will be easier to mount also.
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post #19 of 20 Old 10-23-2016, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Here's the finished product. I ended up just going with basic joints. I had some trouble getting the old saw working so I was just ready for it to be useable.


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-Colbi

Last edited by cstowers; 10-23-2016 at 08:25 PM.
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post #20 of 20 Old 10-24-2016, 09:42 AM
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I have built tables for the shop and didn't take time to make M&T joints. I just put the boards on top of the legs and used drywall screws to put it together.

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