Question about Dust Deputy vs Thein when run with Shop Vac - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 09-30-2016, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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Question Question about Dust Deputy vs Thein when run with Shop Vac

I know you have threads and discussions already all over for this, so I hope you don't mind, but I am getting so confused looking it up online that I need help. And I am getting such nice responses on another question, I thought I would go ahead and ask...

I am trying to decide between two options for sawdust collection.

Either way, it will be run with a this shop vac: http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-St...5500/100377372

I will either purchase the Oneida Dust Deputy


Or build a Thein Seperator similar to this one: http://madebyjohn.blogspot.com/2011/...collector.html


Unfortunately I have yet to find a straight comparison between the two when it comes to finer sawdust AND being run by a shop vac (as opposed to a dust collector). It seems that everyone has an opinion, but I can't find anyone who has used both with a shop vac.

Any thoughts between the two options?

(and yes... I do know that neither will remove all the fine dust and I will have a hepa filter on the vac and if worse comes to worse, vent the exhaust the outside)

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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post #2 of 34 Old 09-30-2016, 10:09 PM
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This thread will answer your questions....

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/f...-deputy-27235/

Unless I'm mistaken that should help you decide.


Unless I'm mistaken, 3 table saws is definitely not enough. Don't ask me how many is...... I will only admit to having 6.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #3 of 34 Old 09-30-2016, 10:33 PM
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Built several versions of the Thein baffle, finally built a vortex separator style - worked much better. (It's the dark blue part in the picture).
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post #4 of 34 Old 09-30-2016, 10:42 PM
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The thread "Forget the Dust Deputy" was so slanted against the Dust Deputy that there was no discussion.
Have you spent time at the Thein Baffle website?
Anyway, I have done way too much research but have not experienced either system, although I will end up with a dust deputy. My sense of it after my obsessive research binge is that if you have the time, would enjoy the build, and want to save a little money, especially if you have scrap sheet goods you can use, is that you will be very happy building a separator.
If you have a backlog of projects and don't mind spending the cash, buy a Dust Deputy. You will be very happy with it.
I believe that this is also the opinion of Paul Thein, who invented the thing.
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post #5 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 02:34 AM
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there are more questions than answers here. What kind of mess are you making? how much of it and how often?

Thats a VERY small machine for any workshop use. No point building a fancy seperator if the suction isnt powerful enough to operate it properly.
(think like putting giant racing tyres on a small engined car, useless)

If you are already making sawdust, what do you have now? If its only that machine I hope you are wearing a good dust mask.

Get the dust deputy. Its a lot better than nothing, and will greatly reduce the bag useage on the machine.

Then get a bigger machine and then get a better seperator.
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post #6 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 11:08 AM
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Dust Deputy

We use a dust deputy. Our workspace is small, so we haven't got the space or time to build or buy anything larger. The DD tips over when we move it about, so a small cart to hold it and the vac in place would be a good idea for us. It works fine for our minimal needs.
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post #7 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnybob View Post
there are more questions than answers here. What kind of mess are you making? how much of it and how often?
Before now I have been making most of my sawdust outside, then having to blow off whatever machine and bring it back inside... filling up much of my dining and kitchen area with tools and supplies. Now I finally have built a tiny workshop and am in the process of gathering what I need for it. Space is a major concern though as it is just barely over 7ft x 13ft inside and has three doors taking up room.

I will still do most of the sawdust-making outside in the summer, but an occasional few small cuts with the miter saw, table saw, router, or a little sanding with the belt sander will probably happen inside the workshop during winter. Not a lot, and not real frequent.

I think the smaller vac was the best compromise between small size and power, since it will actually be used more for cleaning up a little shavings from drills or quick vac-up or blow-out of the little messes in the shop. The vac may stay hooked to the miter saw when not being used for something else as it seems a few quick chop cuts are the most frequent mess making thing I do. I also liked the fact that it is designed to hang on the wall so I can put it above the collector... instead of beside the collector. I am really hoping it will be enough to run through the separator, as more powerful ones just seem to take way too much room for my tiny shop.

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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post #8 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f32/f...-deputy-27235/

Unless I'm mistaken that should help you decide.

Unless I'm mistaken, 3 table saws is definitely not enough. Don't ask me how many is...... I will only admit to having 6.
Thanks for the link. I like the thread, but unfortunately it seems no one there has tried a Dust Deputy and a Thein, so it still leaves the question. They both obviously work, but I am still wondering if one works better with a shop vac.

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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post #9 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alchymist View Post
Built several versions of the Thein baffle, finally built a vortex separator style - worked much better. (It's the dark blue part in the picture).
It looks like a very tall version of the dust deputy, am I correct? What did you use for the housing?

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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post #10 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 12:26 PM
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I have a Dust Deputy. I built a wooden stand with the vacuum low and the Dust Deputy on top because it takes up less room in my small shop. The stand is on rollers and can be moved around. The vacuum can easily be separated from the DD and stand to vacuum out a car or whatever. The DD will trap most of the debris and allow the vacuum filter to go much longer intervals between cleanings.
I do not have a central vac system. I move my shop vac from tool to tool as needed and vacuum the shop floor at the end of most work periods.
The primary benefit for me is not having to clean or change the vac filter as often.
The main complaint with the DD is it takes up more room than I thought it would.
Shop Vac should come out with a model incorporating a built in DD type design. It would be one unit, with a smaller footprint. I think it would sell well to people with small shops.
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If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you have time to do it over?
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post #11 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 03:30 PM
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better with a shop vac?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf View Post
Thanks for the link. I like the thread, but unfortunately it seems no one there has tried a Dust Deputy and a Thein, so it still leaves the question. They both obviously work, but I am still wondering if one works better with a shop vac.

The proof is in the photos on Kenbo's thread as far as I'm concerned. You can't hardly get any better than that, and if you want to get down to splitting microns, go right ahead. I would find the Dust Deputy too tall and tippiy for my uses, the higher the hoses get the more likely it's apt to get whacked over by a misguided board.... even if it may get better dust separation into the filter. The filter on the shop vac is meant to be cleaned out occasionally regardless. Both devices are meant for use with a shop vac, and it would be very unlikely that the same person will have both units for comparison.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 10-01-2016 at 04:55 PM.
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post #12 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 04:54 PM
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I have a dust deputy connected to a shop vac. It sits on one side of the garage (shop) and is connected via pvc pipe to the miter saw, bench top belt sander and has a port for hooking up a hose to the router table, ROS, general cleanup of sawdust. It works just fine. Never anything to speak off in the shop vac bag or filter.

On the other side of the shop, I have a 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector that is piped up to the table saw. It also has a 4 inch port so I can hook up a hose to the drum sander or the planer.

No complaints from me on this set up.
Note: The dust collector has a Thein baffle inside of a 30 gallon drum. Everything drops out into the drum.
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post #13 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MT Stringer View Post
I have a dust deputy connected to a shop vac. It sits on one side of the garage (shop) and is connected via pvc pipe to the miter saw, bench top belt sander and has a port for hooking up a hose to the router table, ROS, general cleanup of sawdust. It works just fine. Never anything to speak off in the shop vac bag or filter.

On the other side of the shop, I have a 2hp Harbor Freight dust collector that is piped up to the table saw. It also has a 4 inch port so I can hook up a hose to the drum sander or the planer.

No complaints from me on this set up.
Note: The dust collector has a Thein baffle inside of a 30 gallon drum. Everything drops out into the drum.
Have you ever connected the Thein to the shop vac, and as the only person I have seen with both, would you have a preference when hooked to a shop vac between the two?

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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post #14 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf View Post
Have you ever connected the Thein to the shop vac, and as the only person I have seen with both, would you have a preference when hooked to a shop vac between the two?
No, I haven't tried connecting the Thein to the shop vac. The connections are not the same size. And, I don't have room in my shop to set it up. Everything works just fine for me the way it is. Sorry.
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post #15 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 10:50 PM
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Using a shop vac, you'll be better off using the dust deputy. It may sound counterintuitive, but the thien baffle needs the higher velocity of a larger dust collector to function properly. The smaller diameter dust deputy lends itself to the lower velocity of the shopvac.

The tools don't make the craftsman......a true statement often overused by individuals who haven't a clue about quality tools or true craftsmanship.
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post #16 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 11:34 PM
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Where do you get your velocity info?

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Originally Posted by wericha View Post
Using a shop vac, you'll be better off using the dust deputy. It may sound counterintuitive, but the thien baffle needs the higher velocity of a larger dust collector to function properly. The smaller diameter dust deputy lends itself to the lower velocity of the shopvac.
I have always intuitively thought the shop vac has a higher velocity, lower volume CFM air stream than the dust collector which has a lower velocity, but higher volume CFM flow.

CFM is a volume/flow measurement where velocity in MPH, is a speed measurement. Here's some research I did on this subject:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg03415.html
Air velocity is 45 MPH in the above article.

Air speed/velocity is 180 MPH in this description of a Rigid shop vac blower:
https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/16-gall...achable-blower

Not wanting to start a whole different discussion, but if you have some references I would like to see them.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #17 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 11:47 PM
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It is a function of both volume and velocity, and a shop vac won't provide enough of either for a thien baffle.

Try actually working in the shop with different configurations to find your own references rather than spending valuable time searching the internet for references. You'll be surprised what you might learn.

The tools don't make the craftsman......a true statement often overused by individuals who haven't a clue about quality tools or true craftsmanship.
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post #18 of 34 Old 10-01-2016, 11:59 PM
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I have been working in my own shop ...

That why I said "intuitively" above. I didn't think my intuition was that far off, so I also did some research.

Bill Pentz site confirms my MPH air speed:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...s.cfm#Airspeed
Quote:
Moving enough air is not enough. To capture the fine dust at the source the air engineering firms who deliver systems guaranteed to meet air quality standards found most tool hoods need upgraded. The reason is simple. The tips of our saw blades and cutters are launching dust at over 100 miles per hour and a typical dust collection system has the air moving at less than sixty miles an hour. This difference in speed means if we don't have hoods that either catch the dust or block it from getting launched it will escape. Looking at your table saw you need both an upper blade guard hood that moves 350 CFM and a lower cabinet hood which moves at least 440 CFM to meet OSHA standards.

My own experimentation with over the blade dust collectors using a separate shop vac has proven that it works way better than the dust collector hose, even down sized for that application.



Notice the under cabinet 4" runs that go to the DC. and the over arm 2" runs that go to the shop vac in this photo.

We may be saying the same thing, I donno? but CFM is not the same as MPH in my book.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 10-02-2016 at 12:01 AM.
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post #19 of 34 Old 10-02-2016, 01:43 AM
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Most of those dust deputies are perchon top of narrow high drums. Thats not a requirement. Mine is on top of a rectangular plastic box. The top of the deputy is not much above my knee height, it is not likely to topple anywhere.

I am about to build a bigger version from a traffic cone, but wont bother with the thien as its too bulky for my workshop.
I am completely happy with the dust deputy design, I just want a bigger version as my dust collecter has a 4" port and the deputy only 2"

Buy the deputy, and WEAR A MASK.
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post #20 of 34 Old 10-02-2016, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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I am about to build a bigger version from a traffic cone
Saw some on the internet like that, but I just can't figure out how it doesn't just collapse. All the cones in my area at least are made of very flexible and soft material so that they can be hit by a car and spring back to shape. Do you have cones that are rigid or something?

Three table saws... of course that isn't enough.
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