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post #41 of 75 Old 04-05-2019, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmercer_48083 View Post
Tool, I think your concept is sound...but we don't know what clearance is under the scooter in order to make it doable.

On another note I looked online and saw a scissor lift for motorcycles and did find one with swivel casters that sat collapsed down to 4-1/2" and sold at Home Depot.com. But it was not wide enough (around 15") to fit under his 21" frame supports on the scooter.
I looked at the photos. I called the Palmer Scooter company to ask if their scooters had reverse (they do!) and learned that they can handle uneven pavement. I thought up the design while I was in the shower this morning. After I posted my drawing and the text, I looked at the photo again and realized that it may not fit as drawn, so I added the "P.S." weasel words at the end to say that some design adjustments may be needed to fit under the seat of the scooter. In addition, I would want a few thin pieces of scrap on hand as shims to adjust the plywood height above the floor.

It would take me less than an hour to build. I would make it "small" and "thin" to keep the weight and storage needs down, but use thick wood appropriately for strength to support the plywood "cradle", the casters, and weight of the scooter.

When I first saw the thread, I looked at lever lift designs. I have a very heavy metal one for a motorcycle repair stand (Handy Lift). The wheel axle serves as the fulcrum. You press down on the long handle, and the small protrusion raises the lift with the heavy motorcycle on it. It allows you to wheel it around despite the extreme weight (well over 1000 pounds). The reason I rejected this design is the space required to operate the long handle. A shorter handle might be viable, but then @konjur1 would have had to bend over or be on his/her knees while the scooter was raised and moved. One advantage I saw for this design was reduced storage requirements, but I rejected it for other reasons.

Another design I considered and abandoned was some type of jack lift, like the motorcycle scissors lift you suggested. It would have a plywood base with casters, a screw post, and a plywood platform on top. Roll the gadget under the back of the scooter, and then give it a few turns to raise the post and lift the back of the scooter. A rubber pad on top might hold it against the scooter bottom as you rotate the caster base to raise it; something like that. I abandoned that idea. It was too complex.

The "scooter carpet dolly" is dead simple. It has no moving parts, other than the casters. It is cheap and easy to design, build, and operate, and it meets all the requirements well. It is relatively small, relatively light, and easy to move. It doesn't need additional space around the scooter when it is in use.

I believe that my design is viable and may be the simplest and best solution. I hope that @konjur1 looks at my crude drawing and gives the basic design due consideration.

My true hope is that someone here can take my design and run with it, or suggest something better.

P.S. Does everybody "get" the design? The scooter wheels rest in the "cradle" gap between the plywood boards on each side. The dolly "frame" does not have to be actual 4x4s and 2x4s; they are examples of the "beefiness" needed for strength to support the weight of the scooter, and sort-of, relative size.

I can think of easy refinements, like:
* Chamfering (angle) the end of the plywood as a short "ramp" to make it easier to push or back the scooter onto the dolly.
* Change the design so that the plywood strips are somewhat behind the middle of the dolly, so that the dolly is less likely to move when you roll the scooter onto it.
* Etc.

Do I need to make a better drawing?


Last edited by Tool Agnostic; 04-05-2019 at 06:38 PM.
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post #42 of 75 Old 04-05-2019, 06:35 PM
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A dolly with a ramp .....

Going back to the drawing board, I came up with this idea.

4 swivel casters on a "U" shaped frame
A ramp on hinges that lowers to the floor
The scooter is powered up the ramp to the flat portion where it is stopped by a block
All the weight of the rear tires is now on the 4 casters and the dolly.
The dolly has a "wide stance" for safety, but can be moved in any direction.

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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #43 of 75 Old 04-05-2019, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
Going back to the drawing board, I came up with this idea.

4 swivel casters on a "U" shaped frame
A ramp on hinges that lowers to the floor
The scooter is powered up the ramp to the flat portion where it is stopped by a block
All the weight of the rear tires is now on the 4 casters and the dolly.
The dolly has a "wide stance" for safety, but can be moved in any direction.

Oooh! Oooh! I like it. Brilliant!

I like it and would recommend your design over my original proposal. Here are two "nit" comments. I am not criticizing, just trying to help with incremental improvements.

* Do you think your dolly can be built strong enough with a fixed ramp, just above the floor? It might be better if @konjur1 did not have to raise and lock the ramp in place after loading the scooter. You could eliminate the hinges, too.

* One concern of mine is that the apartment and hallway space may be so tight that we can't make the dolly much wider than the scooter. Would you consider bringing the casters inside the scooter wheels and putting the two ramps on the outside of your dolly? The inside edges of the dolly platform would help keep the scooter aligned as it backs up the two ramps. That way, your dolly would be narrower, to make maneuvering the scooter around the hallways easier.

Great idea. Let me know what you think of my suggested improvements. Feel free to reject them both.
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post #44 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmercer_48083 View Post
Tool, I think your concept is sound...but we don't know what clearance is under the scooter in order to make it doable.

On another note I looked online and saw a scissor lift for motorcycles and did find one with swivel casters that sat collapsed down to 4-1/2" and sold at Home Depot.com. But it was not wide enough (around 15") to fit under his 21" frame supports on the scooter.


Wouldn't that be the 4" I spoke about? Just below plate that holds the shocks? That is the lowest point where there is a minimal clearance of 4" from floor to plate.

I am going to take more pictures of the scooter when it is actually in the doorway and coming out a little bit, then you will see what clearance there is all around it...hold on.

Last edited by konjur1; 04-06-2019 at 10:25 AM.
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post #45 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
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What about a small "wedge shaped" dolly with 4 wheels: 2 shorter wheels on one end and 2 taller wheels on the other end, and just kicking her under the back of the scooter naturally with the small end heading in, first, and the taller end facing out. Should go since one end would be lower than the other end. To get her out again, maybe thinking drill a hole in the cross piece on the end with the taller wheels and attaching a rope there so I could give a yank and pull it out that way. Some good ideas here, though!! Like they say many heads are better than one.

I will post more pics showing the scooter in the doorway and coming out a little so you can see the cleanance around the scooter. I will be taking Lulu out today as it is promising to turn out to be a nice day, but not till after noon when it will be a little warmer. I will take the pictures, then. You guys are great and very patient, too.

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post #46 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 11:16 AM
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one more ciritical dimension needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Oooh! Oooh! I like it. Brilliant!

I like it and would recommend your design over my original proposal. Here are two "nit" comments. I am not criticizing, just trying to help with incremental improvements.

* Do you think your dolly can be built strong enough with a fixed ramp, just above the floor? It might be better if @konjur1 did not have to raise and lock the ramp in place after loading the scooter. You could eliminate the hinges, too.

* One concern of mine is that the apartment and hallway space may be so tight that we can't make the dolly much wider than the scooter. Would you consider bringing the casters inside the scooter wheels and putting the two ramps on the outside of your dolly? The inside edges of the dolly platform would help keep the scooter aligned as it backs up the two ramps. That way, your dolly would be narrower, to make maneuvering the scooter around the hallways easier.


Great idea. Let me know what you think of my suggested improvements. Feel free to reject them both.



WE need the overall width of LuLu to the outside of the tires in order to ascertain whether or not the casters need to be inboard OR can be outboard and still fit within the doorway.









The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 04-06-2019 at 11:18 AM.
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post #47 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 11:23 AM
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After sleeping on it overnight, I am back to my original design. I like the elegance of @woodnthings proposal, but I believe that my design is both easier to make and avoids the question about how far it extends on the sides of the scooter. Furthermore, my design does not raise the back the scooter much. If the scooter "falls off", nothing really happens. You can't damage the scooter because the entire dolly is lower than the bottom of the scooter. There is little chance you would get trapped in the hallway with a half-tilted scooter.

Here is a newer drawing. I replaced the 2x4s with plywood, and replaced the 4x4s with "square post" because it should be sized to fit under the scooter.

I would use plate casters screwed into the plywood top. Not shown very well are shims between the casters and the plywood top to adjust the height to make it "just right."

I would assemble it with wood glue, with screws to clamp it. I would try it without the "stop block strips" because I don't think they are necessary and it simplifies construction.

(Variant: Replace the plywood strips with a wider single plywood strip, and add stop blocks to the back of the strips. I don't like this as well, but it may be easier.)

P.S. If you are concerned about strength and rigidity, you could glue a "square post" along each plywood strip, glued (sandwiched) between the strip and the plywood top. It would add weight, but make it very strong and rigid.

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post #48 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodnthings View Post
WE need the overall width of LuLu to the outside of the tires in order to ascertain whether or not the casters need to be inboard OR can be outboard and still fit within the doorway. [photos, see above]
If you look at the images above:

The practical width of the doorway is 32.5 inches. The width of the scooter between the L-brackets is 21 inches. The difference is 11.5 inches, or less than 6 inches between the inside of an L-bracket and the doorframe. It is going to be a very tight fit.

I imported the photo into a graphic editor and then drew scaled lines between the L-brackets and between the wheels. The outside-wheel-to-outside-wheel width that I calculated is much larger than the 32.5 inches that we know the scooter fits. Nice try to get a measurement, but it didn't work. It does reaffirm my assumption that we have very little space outside the rear wheels of the scooter.

I still believe that my proposed design is the simplest and best solution.
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post #49 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 01:50 PM
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Okay, I just got out of the shower with another idea:

* Buy one of those cheap Harbor Freight 12 x 18 inch carpet dollies. It should fit between the L-brackets. I assume that it is lower than the motor.
* Glue blocks underneath it. Use screws as clamps.
* Glue plywood or boards under the blocks, extending out far enough for the scooter wheels. Use screws as clamps.
* Attach stop blocks to the top of the plywood.
* Optional: Add inner guide strips or blocks to help keep the wheels straight as they back up onto the plywood.
* Done.

https://www.harborfreight.com/18-in-...lly-63098.html

To use:

* Put a 2x4 behind the dolly casters to stop it from rolling.
* Back the scooter onto the plywood until it hits the stop blocks.
* Roll the scooter through the hallways.
* Put the 2x4 in front of the dolly casters.
* Drive the scooter off.

Does @konjur1 live near a Harbor Freight or a store that sells a cheap 12x18 carpet dolly?
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post #50 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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Keeping it more simple .....

A piece of 1/2" plywood with these "glider/slider" pads under the tires
to directly support the weight should work on a smooth surface in the hallway:
https://www.amazon.com/16-Pack-Reusa.../dp/B01N3573QD


Another choice that would be low to the floor are these, but more work is required to countersink them in from the bottom to keep the height as low as possible:



https://www.rockler.com/ball-bearing...caAobeEALw_wcB


The idea is to have the scooter back onto the plywood under power, no jack required. Then a shove in the desired direction should allow it to move enough to maneuver it into the doorway. Then drive it off the plywood. A metal door stop would create a slight ramp to help get it backed on, or bevel the leading edge ... or even both edges making it non-directional.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 04-06-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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post #51 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Here are more pictures showing Lulu just in the doorway. I had put her fully into my apartment but forgot to take the pictures so I backed her out again so I could take the pictures (just came back from the stores...bucket loaded up). First picture shows her just barely in the doorway. Hasn't passed the floor doorway plate, yet. 2nd picture shows a sideways shot of her after I pulled her out about a foot. 3rd and 4th pictures show the left and right sides of the wheels and how close they are to the doorway's sides. That 2nd shot also shows my neighbor's door opened. She let me take the pictures from inside her doorway.
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post #52 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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<<<The idea is to have the scooter back onto the plywood under power, no jack required. Then a shove in the desired direction should allow it to move enough to maneuver it into the doorway. Then drive it off the plywood. A metal door stop would create a slight ramp to help get it backed on, or bevel the leading edge ... or even both edges making it non-directional. [/QUOTE]>>>

Just to say, Lulu is a very powerful machine, well built and very quick to respond. I would not want to back her in under power using the "reverse" button (darn buttons), which is the only way to move her in reverse, while under power or not. Like I said, she responds on a dime. What Palmer did (and I really hate it) is they put yet another button on her dash board called the "PUSH" button. The push button also only works under power. You use it ONLY when there is a need to push the scooter for whatever reason. I use it all the time when getting the trike in and out of my apartment. On the road, I have to remember to push it again so the trike will move again, under power. When the power is ON or OFF...this scooter isn't going nowhere!!! Not frontwards or backwards!! It's a pain in the neck safety feature if you ask me. The only way she will move is under power and even then, she won't go in reverse until you hit the reverse button. Then you have to hit it again to go forward. The main reason for the safety feature is so that the trike won't roll when on an incline...and believe me, she won't! Let me clarify again, this trike must always be under power to move her in ANY direction which is ok if you are riding around outside, but when you have to do a delicate maneuver like I have to when working in such a confined space like the hallway, I much prefer using the "PUSH" button. When the push button is pressed...the trike will not operate forwards as the throttle is cut off, and all you CAN do is actually push the bike with your hands to move her. She IS fairly easy to push, too. Though wouldn't want to do it uphill. So, I will only use the push button when backing her in or out of my apartment, I would never use the throttle, that darn thing is way too sensitive.

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post #53 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 04:38 PM
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all similar to the classic tilt-plate I mentioned earlier. here's the sketch -
Need big time help with small project-tiltramp.jpg

the front caster has to be locked or the plate will slide away. there is a possibility that a high friction lead edge and very low angle might work in this case. the front casters will be inside and near under the motor - not accessible to lock.
a rope/pulley system could solve that problem.

the casters cannot be outboard or it will not go through the door.

the caster mounts must avoid the interference points around the motor.
the ball casters provide low profile but may break up the block tile on the floor with the point loading.

in a plate design, the holes have to allow the casters to swivel 360'

my guess is about 100 lbs on each rear wheel - whatever overhangs the support from the casters must not sag/break.
there was mention of 'carrying the lift around in the cargo box' - not sure why this is necessary - but that severely restricts the size.
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post #54 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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If you guys come up with a viable solution you all like, I will trust in that one. Sounds like you all know what you are talking about and like I said, I trust that.
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post #55 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Just got another idea. What about this....?

Look at my drawing on the 2nd page. See drawing C". What about if I made TWO of those (with 2 swivel wheels on each one), and make one for each wheel so that it fit not-too-snug around the wheel, then pick up a small jack...pump up the trike and kick those bad boys under each wheel no? Well, it sounded good...now not so much.

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post #56 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 05:38 PM
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So, no "under power" moving .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by konjur1 View Post
<<<The idea is to have the scooter back onto the plywood under power, no jack required. Then a shove in the desired direction should allow it to move enough to maneuver it into the doorway. Then drive it off the plywood. A metal door stop would create a slight ramp to help get it backed on, or bevel the leading edge ... or even both edges making it non-directional.
>>>

Just to say, Lulu is a very powerful machine, well built and very quick to respond. I would not want to back her in under power using the "reverse" button (darn buttons), which is the only way to move her in reverse, while under power or not. Like I said, she responds on a dime. What Palmer did (and I really hate it) is they put yet another button on her dash board called the "PUSH" button. The push button also only works under power. You use it ONLY when there is a need to push the scooter for whatever reason. I use it all the time when getting the trike in and out of my apartment. On the road, I have to remember to push it again so the trike will move again, under power. When the power is ON or OFF...this scooter isn't going nowhere!!! Not frontwards or backwards!! It's a pain in the neck safety feature if you ask me. The only way she will move is under power and even then, she won't go in reverse until you hit the reverse button. Then you have to hit it again to go forward. The main reason for the safety feature is so that the trike won't roll when on an incline...and believe me, she won't! Let me clarify again, this trike must always be under power to move her in ANY direction which is ok if you are riding around outside, but when you have to do a delicate maneuver like I have to when working in such a confined space like the hallway, I much prefer using the "PUSH" button. When the push button is pressed...the trike will not operate forwards as the throttle is cut off, and all you CAN do is actually push the bike with your hands to move her. She IS fairly easy to push, too. Though wouldn't want to do it uphill. So, I will only use the push button when backing her in or out of my apartment, I would never use the throttle, that darn thing is way too sensitive.[/QUOTE]


In order for you to move it, the "PUSH" button is IN, but the wheels are not powered .... right? It's a "neutral" in the gear train ... right?
OK then, it's either a jack system OR a low angle ramp such that you can push it up yourself without assistance .... right?


I would like to avoid the jack if possible ..... heavy, cumbersome, awkward, expensive .....
I am curious about the manueverability being "more better" if you back it into your doorway. I do know that you can back a vehicle into a space far easier than you can pull into ...... based on 60 years of driving experience. That would solve the whole issue IF that's the case....? Obviously, you would drive past the doorway, then begin your turn backing up, not under power. By pulling into the doorway, the scooter's large turning radius and the very tight doorway limits the maneuverability.



Lacking any other low cost, low elevation approach at this point, I would like to know IF one sliding pad as suggested above would allow the scooter to be manually pushed sideways enough to get it into the doorway...... ?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #57 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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Woodnthings,

Yes, the push button is a kind of neutral button.
I should mention that there are lights on the handlebars (on ether side) that juts out to the sides. They kinda have a tendency to scrape along the door as I am backing out so I am really careful to watch out for that when taking her out. I have had other scooters before this one and they were smaller, too, but they were also just as wide (thinking need to be for better balance for us seniors), and I scratched the heck out of the fenders on those other scooters, a lot. Finally just gave up altogether trying to get the right scooter. Then my son goes and buys me this one. He knew I always wanted a Palmer. Guess he forgot that was when I had a house, not an efficiency apartment. When I get some other tools, I'm going to try a bunch of things. I will post if I hit on a good one.
Still waiting to hear how that other gizmo works out, but somebody here said he thought it only went under sideway.

...and yes, when push button is activated the wheels are not powered but they will move freely when you push the trike by hand. In my opinion, they could've left that push thing out, period. Sometimes it interferes with starting the trike up again under electric power. I keep forgetting to hit the button again!!! Darn push button!!

Also let me add, you fellas don't have to keep bothering yourselves with this. You have given me a bunch of great ideas, here. And yes, I know some hit some sort of a snag, but between all of them...I KNOW the answer is in there and I am going to work at it till I find it. Thank you all very, very much! I will be posting what worked for me when I do!
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post #58 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 08:28 PM
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I have given all I can, and probably more than I should have. I have seen many great ideas from others, and want to acknowledge everyone's terrific effort and cooperation. Allow me to remind everyone:

* Whatever solution you propose, it must not be wider than the scooter rear wheels by more than fractions of an inch. Otherwise, it won't fit through the doorway.

* Whatever solution you propose, it must easily ride over the ramps and bumps.

Best wishes and good luck!
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post #59 of 75 Old 04-06-2019, 08:57 PM
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Answer this question ......

Quote:
I am curious about the manueverability being "more better" if you back it into your doorway. I do know that you can back a vehicle into a space far easier than you can pull into ...... based on 60 years of driving experience. That would solve the whole issue IF that's the case....? Obviously, you would drive past the doorway, then begin your turn backing up, not under power. By pulling into the doorway, the scooter's large turning radius and the very tight doorway limits the maneuverability.



It may be this simple. I have solved more design problems by inverting, reversing, flipping, etc. than I can remember. The answer is sometimes staring us in the face, but we can't see it.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #60 of 75 Old 04-07-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Agnostic View Post
Okay, I just got out of the shower with another idea:

* Buy one of those cheap Harbor Freight 12 x 18 inch carpet dollies. It should fit between the L-brackets. I assume that it is lower than the motor.
* Glue blocks underneath it. Use screws as clamps.
* Glue plywood or boards under the blocks, extending out far enough for the scooter wheels. Use screws as clamps.
* Attach stop blocks to the top of the plywood.
* Optional: Add inner guide strips or blocks to help keep the wheels straight as they back up onto the plywood.
* Done.

https://www.harborfreight.com/18-in-...lly-63098.html

To use:

* Put a 2x4 behind the dolly casters to stop it from rolling.
* Back the scooter onto the plywood until it hits the stop blocks.
* Roll the scooter through the hallways.
* Put the 2x4 in front of the dolly casters.
* Drive the scooter off.

Does @konjur1 live near a Harbor Freight or a store that sells a cheap 12x18 carpet dolly?
I have the dolly from harbor freight...so I measured it. (shown without casters) You can work out your thoughts from this. The measurements are with carpet removed and are accurate.
The file drawn in Sketchup
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