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post #41 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
Tim -
do you know who approves the MSDS written by the supplier?
insisting that inhaling a mist of mineral oil is bad for you, as indicated by OSHA, is a bit like drinking hot ice tea because the captain of the Titanic warns that ice is bad for you.

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (6000 items). One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like: Although the major use of petroleum is as a fuel, (gasoline, jet fuel, heating oil),
and petroleum and natural gas are often used to generate electricity, there are many other uses. Here are some of the ways petroleum is used in our every day lives. All plastic is made from petroleum and plastic is used almost everywhere: in cars, houses, toys, computers and clothing. Asphalt used in road construction is a petroleum product as is the synthetic rubber in the tires. Paraffin wax comes from petroleum, as do fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, detergents, phonograph records, photographic
film, furniture, packaging materials, surfboards, paints, and artificial fibers used in clothing, upholstery, and carpet backing.
The MSDS is written by the chemist of the company selling the product. All they really have to do is list substances known to be hazardous. A lot of things are proprietary and they may only list the worst ingredients.
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post #42 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
you are concerned about ingestion but citing inhalation issues.
there is the overt consensus here that saw dust should not be inhaled.

are you giving up wood?
Tom, datacomguy's question was related to safety and in that would be ingestion in his issue.... YOU'RE bringing up something towards me that's NOT related to his question AGAIN....AND YOU'RE guessing/insinuating SOMETHING you KNOW NOTHING about ME OR HOW I operate. DROP IT!!! It's NOT informative to the OP original post. I haven't citied anything referencing inhalation.
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post #43 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 03:45 AM
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Going off of the general advice in this thread and whatever the health inspector ends up saying, I think that you'll just have to experiment with a few different finishes and see how well they hold up to the daily cleaning process that will be necessary in the food service industry and how each one affects the visual appeal of the end product. I doubt you'll make much money on this job with the amount of experimentation involved but it will set you up for success in the future when you know that your method of finishing has proven itself under very demanding daily conditions.

We all have our personal beliefs and preferences on the matter...now it's time for you to form your own.
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post #44 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 10:40 AM
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manufacturers are not free to make up an MSDS to their whims. the content and structure is highly regulated.
they are not permitted to omit proprietary chemicals/hazards.


there is a theory floating around here that mineral oil is hazardous to your health.

OSHA is concerned with workplace conditions - they also regulate how much saw dust can be in the air.


the FDA has multiple approvals on it for external and internal use - and the idea that the FDA is just a bogus operation and no one should listen to them is bad information that must be challenged.



it's cute to worry about the OPs needs. you can start by not giving him bad information.
if you don't like mineral oil, don't use mineral oil. but insisting it's unsafe because you dislike anything made from petroleum is not a valid warning.
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post #45 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 01:04 PM
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I have had a choice of oils to use for spoons, forks and bowls. Olive oil has been my choice for woods in the kitchen.
Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil would be just fine. Not the time for any speculations in human biological chemistry.
On my planet, MSDS are legally required documents, not exercises in advertising.


Read Lehninger: Biochemistry, the chapter on Lipids.

I taught university biochemistry out of that book, in one edition or another, for 30+ years.
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post #46 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The MSDS is written by the chemist of the company selling the product. All they really have to do is list substances known to be hazardous. A lot of things are proprietary and they may only list the worst ingredients.
Excellent and exactly correct...!!!...Thank you...

Those "omissions" I might add have gotten quite a few "companies" in trouble over the decades. Happens all the time in industry and what they tell..."the government"...!!!...I do believe...???...Volkswagen, as a related example, had a rather poignant scandal of lying just recently, as just one example of many...

"...With all the recent discussions around here about safety, I think that there’s one thing that all of us working chemists can agree on: MSDSs are often the next thing to useless..." From: "On the Uselessness of the MSDS", by Derek Lowe - Chemist

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Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...there is a theory floating around here that mineral oil is hazardous to your health. ...
That's not a theory Tom...

For some folks it can be very real to various degrees...That's not open for debate or conjecture...

They can have not only a dermal reaction to it, but others as well. So can folks have such reactions to natural oils as well that I have recommended too,...I wouldn't claim otherwise...

I want you to understand that my primary objection is to the "taste" and yes, some of us can taste it and don't care for it at all. I also don't like a "non eatable" material being anywhere near my food when there are good alternatives to it...

Again, if it works for you...great!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...manufacturers are not free to make up an MSDS to their whims. the content and structure is highly regulated. they are not permitted to omit proprietary chemicals/hazards...
Uhm...???...true...yet the MSDS is a document of minimums (written in "legalese" more than anything for the sake of liability)...not maximums...in stated information...PERIOD!

"...The Act, for all intents and purposes, is in effect at this moment. The MSDS form was put together from existing formats published by various chemical companies, State regulations, and associations. It was tailored to meet the needs of a specific area of industrial uses. With all its failings, it does include the main areas of concern of safety and health professionals while filling the needs of the working chemist, the end user, and above all, the industrial worker..." From: "Development of Material Safety Data Sheets"
by Samuel Aaron Kaplan,Division of Chemical Health and Safety

I've been privy to a few rather major issues with MSDS in my career in the pest control industry years back over Dursban and Colridane both...MSDS is not the "end all and be all" of documents by a long shot!!!

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Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...OSHA is concerned with workplace conditions - they also regulate how much saw dust can be in the air...
Absolutely...our glories "BIG GOVERNMENT" at its very best!!! (and quite ignorant in my personal view very often too...but I own that is a political bias and only hope our current administration can do something about it if allowed too!)

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Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...the FDA has multiple approvals on it for external and internal use - and the idea that the FDA is just a bogus operation and no one should listen to them is bad information that must be challenged...
See above response for the OSHA...

Is it a "bogus operation," that is a good question...Some would suggest it is...and I don't believe (bias) I would disagree with them...

However, if you actually believe everything they publish and the Pharmaceutical Industry that heavely lobbies it and our law makers than that is your choice...

Again, there can clearly be a bias on both sides of this topic...Believe as you wish...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...it's cute to worry about the OPs needs. you can start by not giving him bad information. if you don't like mineral oil, don't use mineral oil. but insisting it's unsafe because you dislike anything made from petroleum is not a valid warning...
In all fairness Tom...you clearly like it...and I say great!!!

However, don't try to use the "fake news" line here when someone has some rather valid points contrary to your own...

Again use it...and like it, that's your choice. There are better options (a bias) out there besides...mineral oil...and many of us think so...I don't think we are wrong for such viewpoints...
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post #47 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 05:06 PM
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it is fake news. it is opinion based on nothing other than OMG 'fears' and associating fiction to fact.

USA, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Sweden, Canada etc etc etc etc and the WHO don't have qualms about it.


so, it's uninformed "it comes from gasoline" vs. the entire scientific world.
good luck with that.


if you choose to avoid it, that is not a problem. when you choose to tell people it's a terrible poison because it's from gasoline refining, that's fake news.
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post #48 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 05:28 PM
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I call a truce...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...it is fake news. it is opinion based on nothing other than OMG 'fears' and associating fiction to fact...
Respectfully Tom, please don't suggest others are making..."false statements"...Especially when your clearly not reading (or understanding..???) what others are either asking about or trying to share clarification about...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...so, it's uninformed "it comes from gasoline" vs. the entire scientific world ...
1. I don't respectfully believe you are qualified to speak for "the entire scientific world." Being part of that world at one time, I know you don't speak for me...

2. No body (that I know of?) in this conversation claimed it "comes from gasoline" directly. What they did state is it is a byproduct of the gasoline and/or petroleum manufacturing process...WHICH IT IS...so please get your facts straight...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...when you choose to tell people it's a terrible poison because it's from gasoline refining, that's fake news. ...
Again...it is from the refinement of petroleum products...which does include gasoline Tom...That's a fact and not fake news.

You may not like it but it is nonetheless...As to being a "terrible poison" please point that out where someone wrote that specifically about...mineral oil...or dial back the vitriol responses because someone doesn't agree with you about something...
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post #49 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 06:19 PM
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Tom,

I DIDN'T make ANY STATEMENTS that OSHA, FDA, MSDS were bad and NOT to heed to them or their advise BECAUSE THEY HAVE their good/bad and PROS/CONS AND have helped with providing better info BUT NOT necessarily ALL the facts.

I DON'T advise anyone to go against OSHA rules EVEN IF I DON'T agree with it/them.

I DON'T say the FDA is incorrect about what they're attempting to do for health.

I ADVISE people to READ the MSDS AND other instructions.

WHAT I AM SAYING is they can perceive their info (or lack of) to their best ability for a judgement/ruling (and most are good) BUT it's a FACT some things have fallen through the cracks lately.

I'll do a combo "Dragnet" ..."just the facts mam..." and a Walter Cronkite of laying/telling the facts down (not swaying them) AND...YES, AND letting the public/viewer make their own opinion....unlike our news media today does.
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post #50 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Excellent and exactly correct...!!!...Thank you...

Those "omissions" I might add have gotten quite a few "companies" in trouble over the decades. Happens all the time in industry and what they tell..."the government"...!!!...I do believe...???...Volkswagen, as a related example, had a rather poignant scandal of lying just recently, as just one example of many...

"...With all the recent discussions around here about safety, I think that there’s one thing that all of us working chemists can agree on: MSDSs are often the next thing to useless..." From: "On the Uselessness of the MSDS", by Derek Lowe - Chemist



That's not a theory Tom...

For some folks it can be very real to various degrees...That's not open for debate or conjecture...

They can have not only a dermal reaction to it, but others as well. So can folks have such reactions to natural oils as well that I have recommended too,...I wouldn't claim otherwise...

I want you to understand that my primary objection is to the "taste" and yes, some of us can taste it and don't care for it at all. I also don't like a "non eatable" material being anywhere near my food when there are good alternatives to it...

Again, if it works for you...great!!!



Uhm...???...true...yet the MSDS is a document of minimums (written in "legalese" more than anything for the sake of liability)...not maximums...in stated information...PERIOD!

"...The Act, for all intents and purposes, is in effect at this moment. The MSDS form was put together from existing formats published by various chemical companies, State regulations, and associations. It was tailored to meet the needs of a specific area of industrial uses. With all its failings, it does include the main areas of concern of safety and health professionals while filling the needs of the working chemist, the end user, and above all, the industrial worker..." From: "Development of Material Safety Data Sheets"
by Samuel Aaron Kaplan,Division of Chemical Health and Safety

I've been privy to a few rather major issues with MSDS in my career in the pest control industry years back over Dursban and Colridane both...MSDS is not the "end all and be all" of documents by a long shot!!!



Absolutely...our glories "BIG GOVERNMENT" at its very best!!! (and quite ignorant in my personal view very often too...but I own that is a political bias and only hope our current administration can do something about it if allowed too!)



See above response for the OSHA...

Is it a "bogus operation," that is a good question...Some would suggest it is...and I don't believe (bias) I would disagree with them...

However, if you actually believe everything they publish and the Pharmaceutical Industry that heavely lobbies it and our law makers than that is your choice...

Again, there can clearly be a bias on both sides of this topic...Believe as you wish...



In all fairness Tom...you clearly like it...and I say great!!!

However, don't try to use the "fake news" line here when someone has some rather valid points contrary to your own...

Again use it...and like it, that's your choice. There are better options (a bias) out there besides...mineral oil...and many of us think so...I don't think we are wrong for such viewpoints...
Interesting you picked Voltswagen as an example. Not long ago they got in a lot of trouble for developing an emission control devise for their diesel cars which would work at idle when the emission test was done but turned itself off when the car was driven. The couldn't make a device which wouldn't plug up if left on all the time.

I can understand a company not wanting to list all the ingredients they put in a product. They spend a lot of money developing a product and to list the ingredients they might as well post a formula to make it. Myself, I only use the MSDS to find out what the product is. A lot of times you can't tell from the product description if it's water based, oil or something else. Before they had to worry so much about lawyers they used to put info like that and instructions on the can. Now there isn't room for that for hazard warnings in three languages.
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post #51 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 06:45 PM
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you have implied mineral old is not safe, some horrible ingredient, etc etc based entirely on the fact that is a byproduct of refining oil.



you have presented absolutely no other evidence or suggestion that it is so terrible other than you don't think drinking gasoline or crude oil is a good idea.


you have an opinion, you're welcome to it. spreading fake/false/made up innuendo and information to people asking a simple question is not acceptable. I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't drink crude oil or gasoline either.
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post #52 of 52 Old 01-20-2019, 07:43 PM
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LMAO...!!!...Seriously

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...you have implied mineral old is not safe, some horrible ingredient, etc etc based entirely on the fact that is a byproduct of refining oil...
Fake News...No I didn't...!!!...Fact check yourself Tom...these are your projected assertions...I've been very clear, and concise with cited opinions of others as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...you have presented absolutely no other evidence or suggestion that it is so terrible other than you don't think drinking gasoline or crude oil is a good idea. ...
Fake News...Never said it was "terrible"...those are your words...Fact check yourself Tom...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
...you have an opinion, you're welcome to it. spreading fake/false/made up innuendo and information to people asking a simple question is not acceptable. I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't drink crude oil or gasoline either. ...
Fake News again...

Nobody but you have suggested drinking crude oil or gasoline...So stop being obtuse...

What I did write that started this was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
... As a by-product of the distillation of petroleum to produce gasoline they really have no place near food preparation surfaces in my (et al) view...
And they don't...In my view. So stop putting false meaning into my (et al) posts!!!
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Last edited by 35015; 01-20-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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