Making Charcuterie Boards Restaurant Safe? - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 52 Old 01-17-2019, 07:57 PM
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Olive oil inside wood is not exposed to oxygen in the air. 325F keeps things quite clean.
I have not had any birch kitchen prep tool go "off" in all the years that I did spoons and forks.


Stagnant oil in a 1/2-full bottle is an entirely different matter.


I buy Greek Iliada Kalamata oil in 3 liter tins.
I decant about 750 ml at a time in a kitchen bottle.
Has a nice but faint taste of kalamata olives.
I don't think that I use 3 tins in a year but I've just opened
the last one I can find.
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post #22 of 52 Old 01-17-2019, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
the theory that mineral oil is not suitable around foodstuff is absolute and utter nonsense.


the theory that a health inspector from any other jurisdiction other than the eatery is a reliable source is exceedingly bad advice. first because 'the rules' are all local and vary from none to nonsense, second because inspectors are famous for having opinions and basing enforcement on unusual interpretations of 'the rules.'
Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.

FOOD for thought (pun intended)....
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post #23 of 52 Old 01-17-2019, 10:29 PM
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Choices...We all have them to make in life...

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...the theory that mineral oil is not suitable around foodstuff is absolute and utter nonsense...
That is an opinion...You are certainly welcome to it...

Case in point, through history, humans do some pretty...STUPID!!!...things to themselves all the while claiming...its safe...and there is not issue!!!

We put Cestoda flate worm eggs (aka Tape Worm) in capsules to control weight (this habit is still around), use "Arsenic" as a "blood cleaners" (still do in other countries) spread "Cyanide around homes to control pest and "claimed that was safe for humans too"...

Then came DDT, Chloridain, Dursban, and countless other...allegedly safe petrol chemicals to use around humans and the environment...that turned out to be not only not be safe, but deadly...

I will clarify again, I have a proven and publicly posted background within Supervisor Professional level certifications in Pest and Wildlife Control (aka Chemist and Toxicology), a strong Science background in general, and a rather respectable professional standing within the woodworking industry at large...

Germane to this topic is a very strong tie to the Culinary Arts with some of my design product lines, and there are many Chefs and Culinary Professionals...me included... (I didn't say all of us!) that don't like the taste of..."mineral oil"...and yes to those with "refined palettes " it does have a very distinct flavor of petroleum that does not complement food the way...coconut and olive oil...does.

Again...by all means respectfully... do and believe as you wish personally...


Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
The one bit of that i have to disagree with is using walnut oil as a finish...
I can't at all agree with the "mineral oil" recommendation...

However, you are spot on with the recommendation about anaphylaxis regarding the...miss use...of walnut oil!!!

Its a great oil...and one of the best "painter oils" of times gone by there is, as a side note. As a food grade drying oil (I will not use mechanical or chemical expressed extraction forms of it) it has many wonderful applications in woodworking.

Nevertheless, unless I am the one applying it...AND!!!!...the client has requested it on a project, I won't use it for food contact surfaces outside my own purview. Even those that go with requested orders, there is a disclaimer that goes with the product about risks with future applications...and my recommendations against it.

Use coconut or olive oils or blends there of...

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post #24 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 03:18 AM
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Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil is quite safe for humans to consume. Why, I don't know or care.
Read the MSDS to read the real facts. So I went to the drug store and I bought some.

Put it in the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. There is sits (5 years?) unopened.


The 325F olive oil treatment uses Charles' Law of gas physics.
It is done once and finished in 3 minutes and 30 seconds.

The End.



Bigger pieces of wood (carved dishes) have taken as long as 5 minutes.
BUT, you have to cross your fingers = at any time the heat could POP! the dish.
I was finishing the spoons and forks a dozen at a time and never lost a single one.
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post #25 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 04:55 AM
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We have a wooden salad bowl and servers. I simply used cooking oil and just kept pouring it in until wood would absorb no more. Still in use 60 years later and still feels very slightly oily to touch.
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post #26 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 12:12 PM
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I never thought about nut allergies until now but it is a good point. I've been using walnut oil for awhile and no fatalities that I am aware of.

Sometimes I wonder if these crazy allergies is just nature's way of attempting to thin the population, I don't remember it ever being such an issue growing up.

Edit: Also make sure whatever finish you choose is gluten-free. That is a pretty big deal too these days.
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post #27 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.

FOOD for thought (pun intended)....
Pretty much everything nowadays has a petroleum a derived component. The packaging your food comes in, the instruments used to prepared it, utensils used to consume it. Just because something has something as its base doesn't make it a problem, if you were drinking unrefined petroleum sure, but refined, purified, pharmaceutical grade mineral oil? Not much of a problem, that.

Mineral oil is a petroleum product and bananas are radioactive, but neither are a problem worth worrying about
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post #28 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
Tom, I was curious re the mineral oil also BUT before posting I googled what it's made of/with.....it is a petroleum fuel byproduct that's been distilled....so just thinking what it's made from is enough to wonder???? FDA ain't always right...think about the lawsuit now over the weed killer most common trade name is "Roundup" to which they approved THEN they started approving "Roundup" resistant wheat, corn and other edibles and the chemical actually never leaves the seed we eat as it's introduced via the soil and moisture. I'm not saying it's stricknine, BUT...???
It also mentioned a ratio parts per million of amounts which are required to be human consumption "safe"....hmmmm... Just saying..??!!..??!!.. So part of your statement has FDA approval but the "absolute and utter nonsense" I wonder about ONLY due to what it's made from.

FOOD for thought (pun intended)....

it is complete and utter nonsense put forth by people totally ignorant of science.
every 'advanced' nation in the world has some flavor of 'health and safety' organization and not a single one of them have any objections to human internal or external use.
a very small number of people have skin reactions to excessive use of mineral oil; and cocoa butter, and milk baths, and various bath soaps, and and and
you probably don't want to know all the stuff you use every day is petroleum based.

Teflon has the same ignorant objections - Teflon is approved for joint implants
OMG it's PFOA! a catalyst once use for PTFE application - only the French are able to find parts per _trillion_ on finished cookware, which they attribute to 'noise' - yet look at the ignorance and hysteria. if you want to worry about PFOA, check the levels in your child's flame retardant sleep ware.

cast iron will give you iron toxicity. real science shows One-A-Day with Iron has hundreds of times more iron.
aluminum causes Alzheimer -
chrome leaches out of stainless steel and kills you. wait until they find out about the nickel...


but the website will sell you a purge that will keep you alive forever.
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post #29 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 05:55 PM
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If I were doing it for my home, Walnut oil would be the choice from the salad oil section of the grocery store. BUT THAT IS FOR MY HOME. I am by no means an expert on the subject and I do know that walnut oil absorbs and cures.

As for pricing just search "charcuterie board" on Amazon. The prices will amaze you.

Rich
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post #30 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 07:36 PM
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"Oil Tempering"...Simply an awesome approach...!!!

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...The 325F olive oil treatment uses Charles' Law of gas physics.
It is done once and finished in 3 minutes and 30 seconds...
Needless to say, those that know me know my love and dedication to the traditional arts...wood is just one very small one within many...

I also live for seeing acient means, methods and materials being either reused and/or rediscovered (my Grandmother would call them "remembered.")

I know of several "oil tempering" modalities employed in tradtional woodworking, from "oil boiling" to "cook in" systems as you seem to be using. I have never taken much time with experimenting or applying these finishing treatment practices...

Reading through your approach and the logic to this method as you employ it is simply brilliant!!! Its one of those "so simple" yet not done by many (any?) today when we know from old descriptions that it was used for precisely such applications. I know that within other cultures such strategies are also utilized to finish and render wood utensils, weapons (wood Knives, throwing stick, bow, atlatl etc), and related with not only a durable finish, but greater strength and longevity in applied use. Yet again not something within the mainstream of application with most woodworkers today here in North America.

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...Bigger pieces of wood (carved dishes) have taken as long as 5 minutes.
BUT, you have to cross your fingers = at any time the heat could POP! the dish.
I was finishing the spoons and forks a dozen at a time and never lost a single one...
I really look forward to trying some experiments with different plant based lipids, and perhaps even the standard finish (Heritage) I have used for so long. I really am curious to see what types of reactions-events take place, and setting up several control pieces for examining durability under stress and neglect...

I could see vessels (aka bowls, plates, vase, etc) having some rather dramatic interstitial distortions from this finishing modality, nevertheless (I think) the risk is worth the outcome. If a turned or carved vessel is going to fail under such thermal duress treatments, it would most likely fail in time from normal use anyway. Your current approach to this "oil tempering" is more than applicable, and if a vessel survive such treatment, it should be better in the long run for it.

I am wondering if you have ever expanded this method to include any kind of "oil boiling" or related? What plant or related lipids have you used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
...Pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil is quite safe for humans to consume. Why, I don't know or care...Read the MSDS to read the real facts. So I went to the drug store and I bought some...Put it in the medicine cabinet in the bathroom. There is sits (5 years?) unopened...
I enjoyed that comment...Thank you...

As an Rx and other targeted applications, I see it as an applicable material. I carry it in both my WEMT bag, and the medicine cabinet as well. Its not used much at all these days (by me) other than softening bandages that may be sticking to wounds or as a field (limited use), as a laxative, earl canal treatments or to remove ticks, and related dermal parasites. Mineral Oil has many uses in this and related regard...So I definitely don't see it (in limited use application) as being problematic at all...just like many Rx methods...

Thanks again for a great post!!!

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post #31 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
it is complete and utter nonsense put forth by people totally ignorant of science.
every 'advanced' nation in the world has some flavor of 'health and safety' organization and not a single one of them have any objections to human internal or external use.
a very small number of people have skin reactions to excessive use of mineral oil; and cocoa butter, and milk baths, and various bath soaps, and and and
you probably don't want to know all the stuff you use every day is petroleum based.

Teflon has the same ignorant objections - Teflon is approved for joint implants
OMG it's PFOA! a catalyst once use for PTFE application - only the French are able to find parts per _trillion_ on finished cookware, which they attribute to 'noise' - yet look at the ignorance and hysteria. if you want to worry about PFOA, check the levels in your child's flame retardant sleep ware.

cast iron will give you iron toxicity. real science shows One-A-Day with Iron has hundreds of times more iron.
aluminum causes Alzheimer -
chrome leaches out of stainless steel and kills you. wait until they find out about the nickel...


but the website will sell you a purge that will keep you alive forever.
Tom , first let's get one fact clear......I might be what you'd call a dumb redneck country boy, BUT LOOKS can be decieving!!! And it's ones personal preference as to what they chose to oil it with...I just stated a fact about the oil AND it's scientific FACT that mineral oil IS a distilling byproduct of producing GASOLINE....YOU wouldn't want to drink gasoline due to it's harmful so in theory why the byproduct???? I'm just asking/putting a thought of common sense out there.......AND no I don't intentionally /knowingly drink teflon AND yes we ingest many things we shouldn't due to "science" says it's "safe".......here in the deep hills we say...."It DON'T matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, IT'S still a PIG", so all I'm stating is the scientific fact mineral oil IS a distilling byproduct of GASOLINE and I didn't water it down, a fact is a fact.....OIL with it all you want.

P.S. We're from the country, we DON'T wear sleep ware!!!!! No PFOA issues here!!!

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
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Last edited by Tennessee Tim; 01-18-2019 at 08:12 PM.
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post #32 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 10:37 PM
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Read the MSDS online for facts. Dr. Google can be such a fraud sometimes.
Next, understand the biochemistry of mineral oil metabolism ( there will be a snap quiz on Monday).
Is that any much worse than condensed honey bee vomit? Or the decomposed anchovy in Worcestershire Sauce?



Jay: I only ever used olive oil. The fatty acid chains in the triglyceride are fairly short (C16?)
so the diffusion path length would be fairly clear. I never read any BS about allergic reactions.
I have lots of good olive oil in my house. I did the spoons and forks maybe a dozen at a time and slopped on extra oil
on the end grain as I watched the oil soak in. . . . then wipe off excess.



I did do a dish with straight beeswax. The pre-oven application of melted wax was a nightmare of a mess in the kitchen.
Technically, the process worked exactly as effectively as predicted. Not again, I think. Waxes are long chain esters,
some running C60. Too big. It works but plant oils do the job very well.
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post #33 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 11:20 PM
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"Read the MSDS online for facts."

....LOL, I did and also looked up "who writes the MSDS facts"......the manufacturer/supplier does......another southern term...." talking 'bout putting the fox in charge of the hen house".....just stating the facts
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post #34 of 52 Old 01-18-2019, 11:49 PM
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Interesting...and Thanks again!!!

Hello DataComeGuy...Last Post on this topic unless you want more yourself, as I don't want to get too off track from your original topic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
...Read the MSDS online for facts. Dr. Google can be such a fraud sometimes?...
I agree...about "Dr. Google" (sometimes) and folks should always read MSDS and Hazard Substances Fact Sheets

I think this might have been aimed at Tim (?) not sure...As stated I think mineral oil has its place as an Rx or in industry for sure...

As to MSDS and HSFS...they were (at one time) my life as they are huge in the pest control and chemistry industry...However!!!!...many can be very misleading and hard to read for lay-folk and professional alike.

Here is just an excerpt for an HSFS from New Jersey...for those interested in..."all the facts"...by all means search it out...

Common Name: MINERAL OIL (HIGHLY REFINED)
CAS Number: 8012-95-1
DOT Number: None
DOT Hazard Class: None
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
HAZARD SUMMARY

* Mineral Oil can affect you when breathed in.
* Mineral Oil can irritate the skin causing a rash or burning
feeling on contact.
* Breathing Mineral Oil can irritate the lungs causing
coughing and/or shortness of breath.
IDENTIFICATION
Mineral Oil is a colorless, odorless, oily liquid. Mineral Oils
are used in medications, cosmetics, soaps and pesticides, and
as lubricants.

REASON FOR CITATION
* Mineral Oil is on the Hazardous Substance List because it
is regulated by OSHA and cited by ACGIH, NIOSH,
IARC and NFPA.
* Definitions are provided on page 5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
...I only ever used olive oil. The fatty acid chains in the triglyceride are fairly short (C16 ...
I can see that...but probably not as well as you (LOL) in the chemistry department...I'm out of practice!!!

Quote:
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...I never read any BS about allergic reactions...
Anaphylaxis to Olive Oils (??) I would agree is more "BS" and mistaken identification than anything...

Can it occur? Anything is possible with allergens and sensitivities, but again these would be extremely rare and its almost impossible to dial in without hospitalization and broad spectrum testing to even be certain.

With Walnut Oil, its not as rare at all, as this and related "nut allergies" often do have a more common anaphylactic response and/or sensitivities with some people on that spectrum including contact dermatitis...more common, but again with a "heat treated" pure food-grade sample I would say it gets rarer...yet...still not worth the risk in my view and experience. Any Doctors that specialize in food allergen responses would ( and have) agreed its not worth the risk with "true nut oils," as it moves past what we would use as woodworkers and more to do with what consumers might try if they here a "nut oil" like walnut is used and then they try to reapply a similar form oil either laden with and or contaminated with the offending proteins that cause the reaction.

Case examples of EMT responses (I'm out of that loop now) was relatively common per annum for Walnut (rarer still for Olive related) but again...was it the oil?...or a protein contaminate of some form...or...something else?

Without specific case study and testing, much of this comes to be "urban legend" not science...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
...I did do a dish with straight beeswax. The pre-oven application of melted wax was a nightmare of a mess in the kitchen...Technically, the process worked exactly as effectively as predicted. Not again, I think. Waxes are long chain esters,some running C60. Too big. It works but plant oils do the job very well. ...
I can't wait to try some of the blends!!!

Any pointers for the beeswax? Thin out with food grade citrus oil and keep the temp below flash point?

Have you tried multi treatments? Oil boiling and then the oven?

I think it could be made applicable beyond just utensils for full on "Stump Blocks" but this will have to be on a more professional level and commercial-custom oven. My friend dug out the old "cauldron" that could easily hold many liters of oil and handle a proper tree stump and/or wood items for jointing a full butcher block...

Thanks again Brian for this great advise and method...very applicable to all this!!!

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post #35 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 02:07 AM
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Fact: Waxes all melt at approx 60C. So you keep the wax in a ratty old coffee mug and melt it in a pot of hot water.
Boiling (100C) is not required at all. Smoke yourself stupid at the same time = there's nothing to burn.
I used typical plumber's flux brushes (new) and tossed them. For $0.15 each, I won't clean up.


Pointers? Don't get smart and slap the wax brush around.

The splash and the spray of wax droplets will be obvious tomorrow.

Lay it on and let the excess melt off in the oven.


I'm just very fond of this as it's a one-shot finish, done for decades with zero maintenance
and it's all over in 3 minutes and 30 seconds. Suits my slothful character.
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post #36 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 03:27 PM
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Tim -
do you know who approves the MSDS written by the supplier?
insisting that inhaling a mist of mineral oil is bad for you, as indicated by OSHA, is a bit like drinking hot ice tea because the captain of the Titanic warns that ice is bad for you.

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (6000 items). One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest (over half) is used to make things like: Although the major use of petroleum is as a fuel, (gasoline, jet fuel, heating oil),
and petroleum and natural gas are often used to generate electricity, there are many other uses. Here are some of the ways petroleum is used in our every day lives. All plastic is made from petroleum and plastic is used almost everywhere: in cars, houses, toys, computers and clothing. Asphalt used in road construction is a petroleum product as is the synthetic rubber in the tires. Paraffin wax comes from petroleum, as do fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides, detergents, phonograph records, photographic
film, furniture, packaging materials, surfboards, paints, and artificial fibers used in clothing, upholstery, and carpet backing.

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post #37 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 07:33 PM
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As you should be...

Quote:
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...I'm just very fond of this as it's a one-shot finish, done for decades with zero maintenance and it's all over in 3 minutes and 30 seconds. Suits my slothful character...
Thank you so much Brian!!!

You should be "fond of" this method!!!

It is simply great and brilliantly simple in concept. Genius is often in the simplest things. This method will create a highly durable finish that has no reason to not age wonderfully with the utensil (and/or cutting boards it is applied to...once I figure out how to do it on larger pieces of wood.)

What I think I like most is the fact that this truly becomes a "interstitial finish" more than most...and it's traditional!!!

Thanks again,

j
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post #38 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 10:04 PM
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THANKS Tom, I'll make sure I don't eat any of those petroleum based things....since datacomguy's question was about what's food safe for the boards he was inquiring about. I only stated some facts of what mineral oil is made of.

Datacomguy, I apologize to you for getting your thread side tracked. You're going to be a provider of a product...gather all the FACTS and be safe... DO ask your client IF you see a unsafe fact that you know of IF he/she request to use that material/fact, they may just be unaware of it.

Enjoy your build!!!

Have a Blessed and Prosperous day in Jesus's Awesome Love, Tim
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post #39 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 10:08 PM
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Making Charcuterie Boards Restaurant Safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DatacomGuy View Post
Great advice - Is this something you recommend i should do, or something the business owner should be familiar with?


Haven’t read the entire thread, but the quote above is the best advice - have the business owner do their due diligence and contact the health department.

If you want the business, go the extra mile (ie customer service) and contact your local health department, and try to talk directly to the actual food program manager (they back the food code). Talking to an inspector may leave some gray area since they aren’t perfect and are looking for the big no-no’s. Inspector experience varies and this may be above their general knowledge level.

Get the any correspondence in writing so you can print it for the owner, and cover your butt.

YMMV, but my wife is a food program manager in WA state. Locally, they require what you’re describing as requiring the following as a minimum:
- hand wash with soap and water
- 1 minute soak in bleach water

Furthermore, any soft wood has to be sanded down flush and retreated however it was protected. No rough/unfinished edges, as it harbors bacteria.

Your local laws may be slightly different, WA state has more strict rules than most states.



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Last edited by kalopsia; 01-19-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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post #40 of 52 Old 01-19-2019, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennessee Tim View Post
THANKS Tom, I'll make sure I don't eat any of those petroleum based things....since datacomguy's question was about what's food safe for the boards he was inquiring about. I only stated some facts of what mineral oil is made of.

Datacomguy, I apologize to you for getting your thread side tracked. You're going to be a provider of a product...gather all the FACTS and be safe... DO ask your client IF you see a unsafe fact that you know of IF he/she request to use that material/fact, they may just be unaware of it.

Enjoy your build!!!

you are concerned about ingestion but citing inhalation issues.
there is the overt consensus here that saw dust should not be inhaled.

are you giving up wood?
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