i've sketched a simple framless dinning table - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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i've sketched a simple framless dinning table

a few minuts ago, i've sketched a simple framless dinning table, i'd like to share


<iframe src="https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/embed.html?mid=b6f8c3f0-c0f8-4b9c-ba08-8a819cdefd4c" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" width="580" height="326" allowfullscreen></iframe>


https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/mod...y-44in-by-30in


-----------------

are the legs should be fit simply with lag-screws or a steel plate should be embedded under the table for each leg?
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post #2 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 07:15 PM
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Most tables you see like that they use a table leg bracket and a screw insert in the end of the leg. https://www.lowes.com/pd/waddell-met...SABEgJIP_D_BwE I don't know if you could get sufficient strength out of a leg system like that. It would probably be better to mount the legs to a piece of 1x4 hardwood and then screw the board to the underside of the top. You would have to elongate the mounting holes on a board like that to allow for the top to expand and contract.

A table of that type are also usually pretty small. Without a skirt on the table a full size table is likely to sag in the middle and also cup warp. It would be risky.
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post #3 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 08:55 PM
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keep on sketching ..... lol

Those dimensions are OK for the top, but without an apron to support it, Steve is correct. You run the risk of it sagging, cupping, and most importantly there is no support for the legs. Typically, a screw on a leg as shown is NOT strong enough for the forces on a dining room table. People lean on it, brush against it, and may even attempt to sit on it....


https://www.google.com/search?q=scre...w=1536&bih=750

Look at these applications for screw on legs and you find them on end tables or coffee tables, but even those won't take much force to break them off or loosen them up.


Farm house and trestle tables are built in a robust manner for a reason. They also endure for generations because they are strong:
https://www.google.com/search?q=tres...#imgrc=_&vet=1

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #4 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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with respect to sagging & cupping, can added thickness of the top resolve it? instead of 2" let it be 3" and make the top sandwiched/layered with some tempered steel bars, i like trestle table very much but i was trying to make it looks very cleam and temporary/modern design
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post #5 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:00 PM
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Yes, it's a clean looking design ....

But the strength of the leg connection is the main concern. If you used a steel plate with plenty of screws like this with a steel leg welded on to it, it would be strong enough:
https://www.haefele.de/en/produkt/sc...1ede600030023/


or these:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/6622499...8d%3A662249954

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #6 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:14 PM
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The thicker the top is made the more it would resist cupping and warping but at the same time the heavier the table would be and the more stress that would be on the legs. If say the top was a full 3" thick you would almost have to make the legs out of steel and veneer over them to make them look like wood. The legs would need to be welded to a steel plate to mount them to the top. It would need that much strength because people have a tendency to try to scoot a large piece of furniture if it isn't quite in the right spot instead of putting air under the legs.
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post #7 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
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yes this is a good solution, as if the tabletop is a steel frame but covered with wood and the same for the legs, and the steel in the legs bolted to the steel frame or plated in the tabletop .. i think it's possible to glue the steel plates in the tabletop with epoxy to be flush to the down surface - thick steel sheets or plates that larger than the end-face of the legs that are (4" x 3") or even attach to the legs steel plates as the tabletop and then bolt steel-plate of the leg to a steel-plate of the tabletop .. would be very interesting top give it a try sometime :)
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post #8 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walidantar View Post
...a few minuts ago, i've sketched a simple framless dinning table, i'd like to share...
That is a clean looking design...Good job...!!!
I believe the more germane term to describe your design would be "skirt-less" perhaps and not "frame-less?

Traditional "skirt-less" designs are very old in orgin with most coming from the Middle East and Asia...

Quote:
Originally Posted by walidantar View Post
...are the legs should be fit simply with lag-screws or a steel plate should be embedded under the table for each leg?
When attempts are made today create the "sleek looking" designs that many enjoy today...to many corners are cut to "dumb down" the design and ignore how a design evolved over millenia. "Skirt-less Tables" are not a design to be trifled with or to cut corners on...not unless one has a great deal of experience in advanced woodworking and joinery methods.

"Hardware" is a corner cutting approach that can get these types of tables built...but most do not fare well in applied use as a table for very long whether in ...big or small...versions of them. The leg assemblies often rapidly tends to loosen with as the metal can not take the cyclic actions of use. Those that do present as more robust often have metal legs and/or invisible metal frame work within and/or inside the wood top itself, however, this moves away (rapidly) from woodworking and more into metal craft.

In the traditional versions of these the "skirt-less tables" the legs are joined directly (in most examples) to the wood diaphragm assembly that forms the top of the table itself...or...some create an illusion (for lack of a better description) of being "skirt-less." A primary group is: 龙凤榫加穿带 (Lngfng sǔn jiā chuān di - "Dragon and Phoenix" joinery systems and related.)

The many names and methods are to numerous to list in just a post like this as the topic can (and has) filled books and scrolls both. I will share a few simple examples of the more common joinery systems employed that fall in this family of systems. One of the most wonderful, robust and award winning examples of this family of joint was taken by an designers Kunt and Marianna Hagberg working with "Ikea." It is probably today the best example in mass production (and good service) of a "skirt-less" table design!!!








Here are some additional "modern" design applications of traditional joinery for building "skirt-less" tables.






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post #9 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:31 PM
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The actual realities of "Skirt-Less Tables."

I will stress again...what is "correct" is different apparently depending on level of experience in furniture design and application one has???

Metal hardware is not either necessary nor historically part of this joinery system...

I can't speak to the limited scope of design that many have in the contemporary context of many DIYers, but I believe the OP was exploring the possibilities of trying to actually build a..."real"..."skirt-less" table as a woodworking project...if possible...and it is of course just that...

Metal can, of course be employed, but that has nothing to do with "woodworking" and more to do with furniture design generically...I'm open to the many examples of "skirt-less" tables that employ both as well...if that is what the OP wants for there design and project...
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post #10 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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i thought such type of tables call frameless, i didn't knew about the term skirt-less .. the last two pictures are just wood glued or there's hidden frame inside?
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post #11 of 13 Old 05-07-2019, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walidantar View Post
...i thought such type of tables call frameless, i didn't knew about the term skirt-less... ...

Hi Wali,

The terminology is different in different cultures, so no worries about that. "Skirt-less" is the most common term in English, but not necessarily the only one, nor important to your goals...


Quote:
Originally Posted by walidantar View Post
... the last two pictures are just wood glued or there's hidden frame inside? ...
Many (most?) of these have "no glue" at all...just joinery. especially in the traditional version. The red color font/Chinese Pinyin of my previous post has links attached. In that link you will see many traditional examples of the family of joinery that creates "skirt-less" tables.


Quote:
Originally Posted by walidantar View Post
...i think it's possible to glue the steel plates in the tabletop with epoxy to be flush to the down surface - thick steel sheets or plates that larger than the end-face of the legs that are (4" x 3") or even attach to the legs steel plates as the tabletop and then bolt steel-plate of the leg to a steel-plate of the tabletop .. would be very interesting top give it a try sometime :) ...
Some of what "you think" might be possible with glue and steel...maybe? However, "gluing wood" to steel is often a receipt for disaster as one moves more than the other and in very different ways. I can expand on this if interested, but feel free to experiment and learn on your own too. All experience has value in teaching us new things about our knowledge and craft...
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post #12 of 13 Old 05-08-2019, 01:50 AM
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All wood contruction using through tenons .....

You can make very strong leg attachments using through tenons with wedges:


A very strong and beautiful workbench with through dovetail tenons:
https://burtonworkshop.wordpress.com...hed-workbench/

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 05-08-2019 at 01:55 AM.
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post #13 of 13 Old 05-08-2019, 07:43 AM
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From the dimensions and the sketch of the table I can't see that working. It's not so much if a table like that can be built but should it be built. We have members all the time that build a table with spindly legs and then ask what can they do to make it not wobble. It doesn't matter how good the joint is, if there is insufficient wood there the table will have problems. It's like if you went to build a house and used 1x2's to frame the walls a house could be built and look nice but you couldn't expect it to be free of problems. Then what has already been said a table top that size out of solid wood would be prone to warp and sag. A top of that size would be better done with a torsion box frame and skinned with thin plywood. This would reduce the weight of the table and eliminate the wood movement and warping issues.
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