Head First Into the Deep End (Walnut Dining Table) - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 04-01-2019, 11:39 PM Thread Starter
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Question Head First Into the Deep End (Walnut Dining Table)

As promised in my introduction, I wanted to get this thread out there as I'm beginning to finalize my thoughts and procure wood, tools, etc. for the job. I have no delusions of knowing anything and am open to suggestion, correction, and maybe some occasional encouragement.

The quick backstory is that we moved into a new home with an actual dining room roughly one year ago. The wife asked me to build a dining room table. I've put it off because I have no confidence in the minute woodworking skills I possess. This led me down a path of learning and reading a few books and here I am. That said...

The Project (and some questions)

My wife loves to entertain and, as such, wants a pretty large table for this purpose. Our room is nearly square and as we taped potential layouts onto the floor, she settled on wanting a 5'W x 6'L table. She wants the extra width in order to put food in the middle of the table with folks on the side still having plenty of room. I'll also be attempting to build two matching benches.

I was thinking the top would be 8/4 Walnut (72"L x 60"w) to get that "chunky" look on top, glued butt joints, and the walnut boards will likely vary in width until I reach the 60" desired. The ends would be 6" breadboards constructed using drawbored & mortise and tenon joinery and glued only on the center dowels to allow for expansion.
  • Question 1: Do you foresee the need for 1 or 2 cross members (1x4 or 2x4) running perpendicular to the boards to prevent future sagging?
  • Question 2: I'm certain that the boards will have some imperfections (cracks, knot holes, etc.) and I'd like to fill those. From what I've read it seems maybe a slow curing epoxy with some dye might be a good solution to fill and stabilize the wood?

The legs (bought pre-turned, 5" square at the top) and apron will be soft maple that we will eventually paint, unlike the top. I intend to use mortise & tenon joinery with the mortise being in the legs and the tenon on the apron boards. I intend to cut a channel (kerf?) on the top, inside of the apron boards in order to utilize a cleat to attach the top to the base, thus allowing for wood movement. Further, I would also attach the apron to the top itself using a single screw (along the midline of the width of the top) at each end.
  • Question 3: Will I need to keep the apron from extending out underneath the breadboards? In other words, do I need to make the breadboard ends have more of an 8" overhang instead of the 3" on the sides? Thinking it through, it seems as though it doesn't make any sense to screw cleats into the breadboard since it's not going to be moving, the boards will. Further, I'm worried that if I screw cleats into the underside of the breadboard, I may accidentally get up into the tenons that are supposed to be "loose" to allow for movement and pin the breadboard to those as well.
  • Question 4: If I connect the apron to the legs using mortise & tenon joints, should I still run pocket screws into those connections or will glue be enough?

My apologies for the lack of brevity. Any insight you may have into my design and/or my 4 questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm a bit out of my league, but I'm reading like crazy trying to learn. I'm not a complete novice with woodworking, but I'm far from knowledgeable.

If I think of something else I missed I'll be sure to edit this original post. Also, depending on how things go, I may try to turn this into a build thread as well.

Thanks for your patience and advice.

Chappy

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post #2 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 04:51 AM
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Consider a "swimming pool finish". Ie poured epoxy. I would use pocket screws.
Best look for some videos on utube.
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 07:21 AM
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My only comment is, do you really want benches with a walnut dinning table in a dinning room?


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post #4 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 07:35 AM
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Post some photos of the legs and your Walnut when you're able to do so. Also, a sketch of the table would be helpful in getting responses.

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post #5 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
As promised in my introduction, I wanted to get this thread out there as I'm beginning to finalize my thoughts and procure wood, tools, etc. for the job. I have no delusions of knowing anything and am open to suggestion, correction, and maybe some occasional encouragement.

The quick backstory is that we moved into a new home with an actual dining room roughly one year ago. The wife asked me to build a dining room table. I've put it off because I have no confidence in the minute woodworking skills I possess. This led me down a path of learning and reading a few books and here I am. That said...

The Project (and some questions)

My wife loves to entertain and, as such, wants a pretty large table for this purpose. Our room is nearly square and as we taped potential layouts onto the floor, she settled on wanting a 5'W x 6'L table. She wants the extra width in order to put food in the middle of the table with folks on the side still having plenty of room. I'll also be attempting to build two matching benches.

I was thinking the top would be 8/4 Walnut (72"L x 60"w) to get that "chunky" look on top, glued butt joints, and the walnut boards will likely vary in width until I reach the 60" desired. The ends would be 6" breadboards constructed using drawbored & mortise and tenon joinery and glued only on the center dowels to allow for expansion.
  • Question 1: Do you foresee the need for 1 or 2 cross members (1x4 or 2x4) running perpendicular to the boards to prevent future sagging?
  • Question 2: I'm certain that the boards will have some imperfections (cracks, knot holes, etc.) and I'd like to fill those. From what I've read it seems maybe a slow curing epoxy with some dye might be a good solution to fill and stabilize the wood?

The legs (bought pre-turned, 5" square at the top) and apron will be soft maple that we will eventually paint, unlike the top. I intend to use mortise & tenon joinery with the mortise being in the legs and the tenon on the apron boards. I intend to cut a channel (kerf?) on the top, inside of the apron boards in order to utilize a cleat to attach the top to the base, thus allowing for wood movement. Further, I would also attach the apron to the top itself using a single screw (along the midline of the width of the top) at each end.
  • Question 3: Will I need to keep the apron from extending out underneath the breadboards? In other words, do I need to make the breadboard ends have more of an 8" overhang instead of the 3" on the sides? Thinking it through, it seems as though it doesn't make any sense to screw cleats into the breadboard since it's not going to be moving, the boards will. Further, I'm worried that if I screw cleats into the underside of the breadboard, I may accidentally get up into the tenons that are supposed to be "loose" to allow for movement and pin the breadboard to those as well.
  • Question 4: If I connect the apron to the legs using mortise & tenon joints, should I still run pocket screws into those connections or will glue be enough?

My apologies for the lack of brevity. Any insight you may have into my design and/or my 4 questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm a bit out of my league, but I'm reading like crazy trying to learn. I'm not a complete novice with woodworking, but I'm far from knowledgeable.

If I think of something else I missed I'll be sure to edit this original post. Also, depending on how things go, I may try to turn this into a build thread as well.

Thanks for your patience and advice.
For us to truly understand what you are proposing a sketch would help.

What you are building is unusual but that is alright. Walnut is normally a formal wood but you are making a table the top that is normally made out of pine for that type table.

Keep in mind a table top that size will be very heavy. In order to move the table from place to place I would make the table base one piece and the top and skirt another just attaching the top to the base with screws. Then when it comes time to move the table you could remove the screws and carry the top separately. If you would just put a couple of boards across the underside of the top mounting it to the top with elongated screw holes it would be enough to hold the table top and would allow for wood movement. I would use soft maple making the boards about 1 1/4" thick and about 5" wide.

As far as sagging, the skirt of the table should prevent that as long as they are at least 3 1/2" wide. You might run a dado on the back side of the skirt and use the Rockler table top fasteners to mount the skirt to the table top. They would be good to allow for wood movement.

The defects in the wood except for the cracks you could just fill those with bondo mixed with some burnt umber tinting color. If you mix a batch of bondo with a universal tinting color prior to adding the hardener it works very well filling knots. With any large hole in wood regular wood putty takes so long to harden you have to fill a hole with a little bit at a time over days in order to make a fill but bondo can be used in one application. Just allow overnight drying before sanding because it does shrink a little. If the wood is cracked there is going to be pressure there to crack further. Before you do any filling there you might put some bowtie patches there first. The bowties will help stabilize the wood so perhaps it won't crack further.

Depending on how wide you make the breadboard ends it may be necessary to run the skirt under it. If you use the table top fasteners and are careful where the tenons are it shouldn't be affected with wood movement.

Any time you make a mortise and tenon joint pocket screws are unnecessary.
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post #6 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
My only comment is, do you really want benches with a walnut dinning table in a dinning room?
The benchtops will be walnut as well, to match. And the reason for the large width is that the wife wants to put two chairs on each short (60") end.



Quote:
Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
Post some photos of the legs and your Walnut when you're able to do so. Also, a sketch of the table would be helpful in getting responses.
These are the legs I'm looking at (picture attached) and for the walnut, I'm sourcing that from a local lumber yard here in Indy (haven't purchased it yet). Since I don't have a joiner or planer, I was going to pay a little extra to the yard to have them take care of those tasks for me. That way I have flat, straight boards to work with when I get them home.

As for a table sketch, I'll whip something up later this evening and post it here.
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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What you are building is unusual but that is alright. Walnut is normally a formal wood but you are making a table the top that is normally made out of pine for that type table.
I really appreciate this thoughtful post. Rather than respond to each piece of advice, I'll heed yours and David's advice and post a sketch of what I'm thinking here later this evening taking into account your advice.

That said, regarding the quote I copied here, you're correct in that the wife is wanting a "farmhouse" style table. But, after the architect in me asked her a hundred questions about her desired design intent, I realized what she really wants is basically a mash-up, if you will, of a typical farmhouse style table (pine, some imperfections, benches) and a formal dining table (walnut, perfectly smooth top, mix of chairs and benches).

Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly.

Chappy

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Last edited by ChappyEight; 04-02-2019 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Clarification.
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 01:03 PM
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My dining table uses similar brackets and I have taken them off for transport several times.
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 02:00 PM
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I don't have all your answers ......

There are pros and cons to breadboard ends, and unless they are done properly, they don't allow for wood movement. As close as I can examine this video ..... he elongates the holes for wood movement, offsets them 1/16" or so for the draw bore and only glues the center mortise and tenon and dowel pins... all the correct procedures.




Do you want them or need them is a more basic question. Their main purpose is twofold, hide the end grain on the planks, and keep the planks from shifting and or cupping. Careful selection of the planks which have been properly dried, acclimated to the environment of the build and bound with strapping tape until ready to use, will give the best results. Stickering them with 1" air gaps will allow them to breathe under the strapping tension. Wood movement will make or break an otherwise beautiful table.



What if you didn't use breadboard ends? Will the planks shift or cup?
We can prevent shifting with splines or or dowels, possibly biscuits?
Cupping is a different issue. You can minimize it by ripping down the center of planks 8" wide or more and gluing them together to maintain the grain lines. Done properly, you won't be able to tell it has been done. The saw cut must be made with a straight edge and then glued back together with no additional machine work or planing. It will be a perfect mate even if the saw wandered just a slight bit. You may not like the look of the exposed endgrain .... I donno?


Once the top is glued up, you must coat both the top and bottom with a sealer to prevent warping from uneven moisture adsorbtion.
You can not store it on a bare concrete floor, it should be on a leveled set of saw horses. Storing it on edge will work also so long as there is air movement around it, away from the wall. Treat it's like a large piece of glass.



I doubt if a 1" X 3" apron will do much to prevent a 2" thick top from warping, but who knows? Your "Z" clips in a saw kerf, will allow for some wood movement and are a common means of securing the top.



Securing the legs is the final issue. Here's a leg brace designed by a member here. I started a "how to make it challenge" , but I only got one other method:
https://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f2/l...allenge-33352/
There are several variations on that theme, all of which will work, including the metal one posted above.



The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
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As promised, here are some images with my preliminary design. I'm open to critique and suggestion...
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post #11 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 08:51 PM
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From what I can see you have covered the bases, breadboard ends, and mortice and tenon to fasten the legs, it is a large table but should work okay. Always good to see that some research has been done.
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post #12 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
As promised, here are some images with my preliminary design. I'm open to critique and suggestion...
It looks fine to me except for what I suggested about the weight. If you are good with the table being heavy and hard to handle then go for it. You might make the top first and then think about it.
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post #13 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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It looks fine to me except for what I suggested about the weight. If you are good with the table being heavy and hard to handle then go for it. You might make the top first and then think about it.
This is a wise thought. We don't intend to move again (we stayed in our first home for 12 years before moving to this one) so I'm not all that concerned with portability. That said, I also don't want to be too foolish to consider obvious weight savings where possible. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention.

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post #14 of 17 Old 04-02-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
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...I'm an architect here in Indianapolis and, as such, typically overthink most any project I attempt.
Hi Chappy...

I've been following along up to now. I wanted to see the sketch to know more about what your up to. I like the "deep end" metaphor...I always call it the "rabbit hole," and find myself too, as a designer, trying to figure out if I take the "blue or red pill"...LOL...

I think...pun intended..."overthinking" is part of the genetic code of anyone that designs for a living...No cure yet (I've looked) but there is group therapy that seems to help...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
The benchtops will be walnut as well, to match. And the reason for the large width is that the wife wants to put two chairs on each short (60") end...
Criminy...30" per guest spacing!!!...She does like putting on a good dinner doesn't she!!! but that means less room for the long side doesn't it...???

I like square tables aesthetically, and they have there place, but its usually more a "statement" than function perhaps. With the room as you have described it though, I understand why you went with that size.

Could it get a tad longer?...Like maybe 90" to keep the 30" setting format?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...I'll also be attempting to build two matching benches ...
Elaborate please...are these for the table or independent seating for something else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...I was thinking the top would be 8/4 Walnut (72"L x 60"w) to get that "chunky" look on top, glued butt joints, and the walnut boards will likely vary in width until I reach the 60" desired... The ends would be 6" breadboards constructed using drawbored & mortise and tenon joinery and glued only on the center dowels to allow for expansion...
That works within the design motif as presented thus far...and I like it very much overall.

However, the goal isn't certain for me yet? Is this a modern "country look" or "country chic" with a modern flair you are going for?

I'm also getting a strong sense of a bit of both, but its hard to tell...

Your current design also falls perfectly into pure classical (and traditionally...!!!...my world) old world "Kitchen Work Table" as found in France, and very common in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, especially with that bulky leg turning, thick top...and...vintage country wide breadboard that could be bumped up to 8" or even more with that thick top...!!!... but I would have to know the actually design goal your wife has in mind to be of much help past this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...Question 1: Do you foresee the need for 1 or 2 cross members (1x4 or 2x4) running perpendicular to the boards to prevent future sagging? ...
There addition would not hurt the design at all...With the classic vintage versions this was standard practice as the wood was often "green" when used and made of whole slabs and/or very large plank...even logs halved and hewn/riven down to size...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...Question 2: I'm certain that the boards will have some imperfections (cracks, knot holes, etc.) and I'd like to fill those. From what I've read it seems maybe a slow curing epoxy with some dye might be a good solution to fill and stabilize the wood?...
NO...that isn't a "must do" but a choice for sure...

There are plenty of other traditional modalities to address such things that may (or may not?) fit within the overall design motif your wife is trying to achieve and your trying to create for her...

I tend to follow "vernacular forms" in my work both with furnishings, and within the timber frame homes I design and/or co-facilitate with colleagues...as such the "folk styles" I work in have a number of solutions to deal with blemishes, imperfections or what in the "Asian mined set" would be considered...beautifully broken....ergo the concept of: Kintsugi 金継ぎ and Wabi-sabi 侘寂 The link attached to those design concepts have ideas that are also solutions you may find useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...The legs (bought pre-turned, 5" square at the top) and apron will be soft maple that we will eventually paint, unlike the top. ...
Modern paint...or classic traditional like casein? I can help with the latter and traditional finishes in general if going for the heirloom "pass it down" piece of furniture look...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...I intend to use mortise & tenon joinery with the mortise being in the legs and the tenon on the apron boards. I intend to cut a channel (kerf?) on the top, inside of the apron boards in order to utilize a cleat to attach the top to the base, thus allowing for wood movement. Further, I would also attach the apron to the top itself using a single screw (along the mid-line of the width of the top) at each end. ...
With each question, your getting more and more into the "tradtional world" I work and design in. At this point, the entire table could be cut almost as fast with just hand tools (and a little guidance) as it could with power tools. A topic most don't "buy into" but the reality none the less for those of us that use a mix of both...

The screw in the middle may be need, but I'm not certain yet...???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...Question 3: Will I need to keep the apron from extending out underneath the breadboards? In other words, do I need to make the breadboard ends have more of an 8" overhang instead of the 3" on the sides? Thinking it through, it seems as though it doesn't make any sense to screw cleats into the breadboard since it's not going to be moving, the boards will. Further, I'm worried that if I screw cleats into the underside of the breadboard, I may accidentally get up into the tenons that are supposed to be "loose" to allow for movement and pin the breadboard to those as well...
"Screws" didn't exist in most of the original designs at all, and the oldest table in these forms (pushing 1000 years old...!!!...and fairly common at over 500 years) so you are overthinking...LOL...at this stage.

Also, the Breadboards in such designs of Harvest Tables, Kitchen Work Tables, etc often over hung the apron a great deal to allow a worker (or someone having a meal) to sit at the end and not hit the apron...Food for thought?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...Question 4: If I connect the apron to the legs using mortise & tenon joints, should I still run pocket screws into those connections or will glue be enough? ...
NO...!!!...but that's my bias...LOL...

Yet the reality is...the old ones didn't need pocket screws or any hardware at all and they have lasted centuries in good order...and...they got built with simple tools from "green wood" so you are well ahead of the game in what you can choose from...

For me, if your wife was client, I would be already looking at trees to mill and the table would (for the most part) be built from green wood (by today's standards) in the classic forms with heavy mass and full joinery to support it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
...My apologies for the lack of brevity. Any insight you may have into my design and/or my 4 questions would be greatly appreciated. I'm a bit out of my league, but I'm reading like crazy trying to learn. I'm not a complete novice with woodworking, but I'm far from knowledgeable. ...
As an architect...LOL...I would call the above really brief compared to some of the emails I get on such subjects...

Look forward to following along and helping where asked...

j

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post #15 of 17 Old 04-03-2019, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Post Designers ask too many questions... :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Criminy...30" per guest spacing!!!...She does like putting on a good dinner doesn't she!!! but that means less room for the long side doesn't it...???

I like square tables aesthetically, and they have there place, but its usually more a "statement" than function perhaps. With the room as you have described it though, I understand why you went with that size.

Could it get a tad longer?...Like maybe 90" to keep the 30" setting format?
This is a great thought. I will measure this evening to see if we could at least get up to 84" to give 28" each to the side diners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
Elaborate please...are these for the table or independent seating for something else?
Sure. The benches on the long sides will be for table seating. Regarding how that reconciles with the aesthetic intent leads me to...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
That works within the design motif as presented thus far...and I like it very much overall.

However, the goal isn't certain for me yet? Is this a modern "country look" or "country chic" with a modern flair you are going for?

I'm also getting a strong sense of a bit of both, but its hard to tell...

Your current design also falls perfectly into pure classical (and traditionally...!!!...my world) old world "Kitchen Work Table" as found in France, and very common in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, especially with that bulky leg turning, thick top...and...vintage country wide breadboard that could be bumped up to 8" or even more with that thick top...!!!... but I would have to know the actually design goal your wife has in mind to be of much help past this...
The design. So, undoubtedly in both architecture (and now it seems woodworking as well), my family is always the toughest clients. They have some random "vision" and inevitably what they ask of me is a hodge podge of design styles. If I were to try to pin it down, I would agree you are on the right track. It seems to me that she is looking for more of a "country chic" style where you have this postmodern type blend of a traditional, sleek, beautiful top with a more rustic, painted, weathered look base (apron and legs). Further, you are also correct when you mention "kitchen work table" as this dining room table will often serve as a sewing/scrapbooking table. This is primarily why we've allowed the dimensions of the table transverse norms and "fit the room" if you will. I do like the idea of an 8" breadboard in lieu of the current 6" as, coincidentally, I just mentioned that to the Mrs. last night.

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Modern paint...or classic traditional like casein? I can help with the latter and traditional finishes in general if going for the heirloom "pass it down" piece of furniture look...?
She has mentioned the paint being faux-weathered. So, a modern fake of the traditional maybe......


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With each question, your getting more and more into the "tradtional world" I work and design in. At this point, the entire table could be cut almost as fast with just hand tools (and a little guidance) as it could with power tools. A topic most don't "buy into" but the reality none the less for those of us that use a mix of both...
Interestingly, I found out recently an older gentleman in my church has an entire hand tools woodworking shop in his basement. I graveled to him just enough that he's taken pity on me and has offered his shop and expertise. The more I research modern woodworking and craftsmanship, the more I lean toward using more hand tools than power tools (though I'd argue I'm probably of a hybrid mindset right now). In fact, I'm even looking at ways that I could create this table using no screws, rather, solid joinery and dowels. We'll see...


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For me, if your wife was client, I would be already looking at trees to mill and the table would (for the most part) be built from green wood (by today's standards) in the classic forms with heavy mass and full joinery to support it...
This piques my interest greatly. Could you direct me to a few photographs about what you mean by this?


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Look forward to following along and helping where asked...
Sincerely appreciated.

- Chappy

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Architect professionally, golfer wannabe, theologian by grace, woodworker by... well... nothing yet.
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post #16 of 17 Old 04-03-2019, 09:06 PM
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Interestingly, I found out recently an older gentleman in my church has an entire hand tools woodworking shop in his basement. I graveled to him just enough that he's taken pity on me and has offered his shop and expertise. The more I research modern woodworking and craftsmanship, the more I lean toward using more hand tools than power tools (though I'd argue I'm probably of a hybrid mindset right now). In fact, I'm even looking at ways that I could create this table using no screws, rather, solid joinery and dowels. We'll see...



This piques my interest greatly. Could you direct me to a few photographs about what you mean by this?




Sincerely appreciated.

- Chappy
Chappy, it seems you have a couple mentors to guide you along the way, listen and learn from the old fellow, that and with picking Jay's brain it will be pretty hard to go wrong, as a married man I understand the challenges you face.

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post #17 of 17 Old 04-03-2019, 09:56 PM
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...This is a great thought. I will measure this evening to see if we could at least get up to 84" to give 28" each to the side diners. ...
If the space can accommodate this enlargement, I am sure you would not be disappointed with the greater amount of real estate when having a family meal...or project...

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...Sure. The benches on the long sides will be for table seating. Regarding how that reconciles with the aesthetic intent leads me to...
Gosh...??!!...this gets more "folk style" by the minute.

Many (most?) "country tables" have at least one side covered by benches. This is where the children sit, and/or the "house hold" members when they entertained; while guests sit accross from them on individual seating (aka chairs.)

I love BENCHES!!!!

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...The design. So, undoubtedly in both architecture (and now it seems woodworking as well), my family is always the toughest clients. They have some random "vision" and inevitably what they ask of me is a hodge podge of design styles. If I were to try to pin it down, I would agree you are on the right track. It seems to me that she is looking for more of a "country chic" style where you have this postmodern type blend of a traditional, sleek, beautiful top with a more rustic, painted, weathered look base (apron and legs). Further, you are also correct when you mention "kitchen work table" as this dining room table will often serve as a sewing/scrapbooking table. This is primarily why we've allowed the dimensions of the table transverse norms and "fit the room" if you will. I do like the idea of an 8" breadboard in lieu of the current 6" as, coincidentally, I just mentioned that to the Mrs. last night...
O.k....this is dialing in for me where she is in her "imagination" of the table. That's actually better than the client that has the fleeting nebulous of thought that leaves you "guessing" every 5 minutes: HMMM!!!...where will she/he go next...??!!!...and can I get this bird to land on a limb someplace?...LOL...

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...She has mentioned the paint being faux-weathered. So, a modern fake of the traditional maybe...... ...
Well...that's actually good...

I can still work with that and be helpful...as the traditional paints and finishes I work with (besides being "food grade" with many of them) are extremely..."family friendly"...in all manner and way...

I was once a teacher (I still substitute once in a blue moon) so I love getting the more robust and DIY orient clients/friends to engage others in their family with building things...Finishing is a great place to have some fun...!!!!......with kids and spouses alike...

If someone wants..."old looking"...there is simply no better methods out there than using the original paints, and putting them in the hands of kids. Old fashioned paints lead to "old fashioned" aesthetics and this tends to leave the "faux" behind and gives the real look with the "real thing!"

Weathering comes with little hands and time...and it starts with letting them do the best they can...These traditional finishes take to kids like ducks to water...WATCH...picking blues and reds...they will get it all overthemselves without some help...or...have fun and let them...!!!

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Originally Posted by ChappyEight View Post
... Interestingly, I found out recently an older gentleman in my church has an entire hand tools woodworking shop in his basement. I graveled to him just enough that he's taken pity on me and has offered his shop and expertise. The more I research modern woodworking and craftsmanship, the more I lean toward using more hand tools than power tools (though I'd argue I'm probably of a hybrid mindset right now). In fact, I'm even looking at ways that I could create this table using no screws, rather, solid joinery and dowels. We'll see......
Because I have to be "competitive" I still use power tool myself, but they are the "backdrop" to the primary work with hand tools. Everything I design and make (or help colleagues design and make) is all finished by hand. Be it a 10K ft² timber frame, or a kitchen table...

MOST...folks would run screaming into the night if I mention "green wood" and making it with hand tools alone (or augmented with power) but for the brave (and I dare say "wise" souls) its a gift that keeps on giving. In reality, humans have been making things with wood for thousands of years and its only been in the last few "milliseconds" of that history that "electron power" ever got enveloped. From 6 story 2000 year old wood temples all the way to Harvest Tables that have feted and held blessed families for centuries these things good made with hand tools, done timely in fashion, and usually (for the most part) with green wood by today's standards of what is now called "woodworking."

It's not "harder" the best (or worst...??!!...LOL...) one could say is its "different" than what most do, but not for some of us, nor for our ancestors...

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...This piques my interest greatly. Could you direct me to a few photographs about what you mean by this? ...
Love to...

I have a very robust Pinterest Board collection (better than a web page alone) of numerous styles I work in both with tradtional architecture and its furnishings (among other architectural passions)...Below is just a few links, but feel free to "fall into the Rabbit Hole"...(no pills required or allow...LOL...) and I would be glad to expand on anything there should you wish to explore more deeply any "side burrows" within the "warren."

Tosa Tomo Designs "Pin Boards"


Below are Boards that may (or may not?) perk the families interest within the context of your project.

Harvest Farm Table

Wainscot Chair
I included these (and related) types of chairs, because some of the oldest (still in use too!!!) chairs are made like this...Why is this important?...!!!...This style is almost exclusively "hand made" from green riven hardwoods, usually an Oak species. It speaks (loudly!!!...LOL...) of what "green woodworking" can be and become if one masters just some basic skills. These chairs (minus the carving of course...) are very simple in design with all wood draw born joinery and/or wedges...

Chairs - Green Woodworking

Benches

Plank Style

Cant Style Furniture


Live Edge Slab

Tosa Tomo Designs
Confucius (551 BCE): "I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand..." "...Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance..." Socrates:“I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only help them think..."
Stephen Covey:"Seek to understand, before seeking to be understood..."

Last edited by Jay C. White Cloud; 04-03-2019 at 10:04 PM.
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