Designing A Dust Collection System - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-28-2017, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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Designing A Dust Collection System

Over the next six weeks, I will be going through how to design a dust collection system what works and what didn't work for me and the cost that is involved with the system.
It will start with the picking a dust collector and go all the way to fully automated blast gates. We will in next six weeks talk about manual systems, semi-automated systems, and fully automated systems. We will also look at dust collection design and placement and about it cyclones separators and placement in your system. Personally I like the biggest bang for the buck. We will be trying to do this system as cheaply as possible.

My background I started woodworking as a child and have been doing woodwork for the last 30 years. Woodworking is not my only expertise I am also an aerospace engineer. That makes me look at the world differently, I look at everything and think how can I fix that. In college, I did robotics, programs machines, and wrote code for CMM's. I have been a machinist for 10 years, an engineer for 15 years, and do it yourself person for my whole life. As we go forward with this you will see that DIY person in me come out.

Let's start with the Dust collector. There are many brands of dust collectors out the and all of them have their pros and cons. I am cheap so that cuts it down by a lot. I really looked at three dust collectors the Grizzly G0548ZP, JDS 2 HP Cyclone 2100-CKV, and Jet DC-1200VX, There was only one reason that I was looking at the JDS I really like a feature on the Dust collector the self-cleaning filter

Grizzly
Cost $475
Motor: 2 HP, 240V, single-phase, 9A
Blower/impeller: 12-3/4" aluminum, radial fin
Air suction capacity: 1700 CFM
Static pressure: 10"
Sound rating: 83Ė85 dB
6" inlet has removable "Y" fitting with three 4" inlets
Canister filter size (dia. x depth): 19-5/8" x 23-5/8"
Bag capacity: 5.7 cubic feet
Overall dimensions: 31-1/2"W x 37-3/8"L x 71"H
Approximate shipping weight: 150 lbs.

JDS Cyclone
Cost 1499.00
Compact design is perfect for small shops, only 68 inches tall!
Radio Frequency Remote Control.
The self-cleaning 1 Micron Canister is equipped with its own motor.
New and Improved ďTurbo FanĒ impeller is larger, resulting in more Power!
1700 Max CFM!!!
Quick connect drum lid lever makes removing the steel collection drum quick and easy!
The smallest most compact cyclone on the market is now portable!!!

Jet
Cost 749.99
5 Year Warranty
Brochure
Brand: Jet
Manufacturer Part Number: 710702K
Weight (lbs): 0.0000
Amps: 8
Sound Rating: 80 - 85 dB
Volts: 230
Height: 39"
Length: 37-1/2"
Width: 22-1/2"
Warranty: 5 Year
Capacity: 5.3 Cubic Feet
Flow Rate: 1200 CFM
Filter Type: Canister
HP: 2 HP

After looking everything over I went with cheap and the self-cleaning filter we will get to that later.
Because of its cost, 1700 CFM and 10" static pressure I got the Grizzly.
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-28-2017, 10:46 PM
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Can't wait to see all this come to fruition.
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-28-2017, 11:22 PM
where's my table saw?
 
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I don't know if you want us to comment?

But I'll take a stab at it anyway.
For an extra $300 or so I would have gone with the Jet Vortex which would be "almost self cleaning" since the filter will stay cleaner longer and you can just rotate the paddle and knock off the built up dust. I do own 2 Jets but they are not the Vortex design. I've tried to convert them without much success. I'm not totally convinced of the 1700 CFM rating of the Grizzly either..... It's hard to believe the same HP motor would yield a 500 CFM difference . The fan/blower design is so important I would think Jet would have equally smart engineers on their team? Dust collector CFM ratings are like HP ratings on shop vacs, you just can't believe them.... just sayin'

Thanks for signing up and sharing your skills here! :smile3:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-29-2017, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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Comment as much as you want! The 1200CFM vs the 1700CFM is the vortex. The design of the vortex cases extra static pressure which in turn drops the overall flow rate. but cleaning won't be a problem for $65 dollars I made it self-cleaning the details will be in the next couple of weeks on how that works.
Thanks for your thoughts
Dan
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-30-2017, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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Lightbulb

Designing your system this is a critical part and if done right you should have no problems with the system. In school, I studied fluid dynamics and the way air moves is complicated. I have read all about static pressure and how you calculate static pressure. It's not really easy and simple static pressure calculators (Flex hose is --" of static pressure per foot...), those calculators that help to make it easier are not real accurate. Even if all the calculation where correct you still need to get dust from the machines. Good or bad that's just what needs to happen. For the most part hooking a 4Ē pipe to the machine will get some if not all the dust that machine makes out. That makes all the calculation irrelevant because we just canít spend thousands of dollars on 24-foot tall dust collectors that cost $5000 dollars a year to run. So you buy a smaller dust collector and use blast gates. With the exception of two machines in my shop, most dust collectors will do a good job of getting all the dust out of most machines. In my shop two machines got plugged over and over again, they were the jointer and planer. Unlike other machines, these machines make big heavy chips that are hard to get up a pipe and to a dust collector. So to help this I added a cyclone in the middle of the shop so the chips had a shorter distance to travel. The shaper is one other machine that also makes big chips but it's really close to the dust collector so it doesn't get plugged. I may add one more cyclone to shaper main line so I donít have to empty the dust collectorís bag as often. The Dust collector bag is one of those things that really needs to be fixed. If anyone has every changed one you know what Iím talking about. Dust get everywhere and getting that ring around the bag is a pain. In my planes, you will see lots of blast gates even though they are a pain to open and close it really help to decrease static Pressure. The blast gates also help with dead air spaces that collect wood chips and saw dust. Most of my 90 deg are two 45 deg to help to lower the static pressure. I tried to use as little flex hose in the system to help with static pressure. I also used about 6 rolls of 3M Aluminum Foil Tape 3381 (for metal duck work) to help with lost suction in the joints.

The Machines that I have in my shop

- Grizzly 15" planer G04539
- Grizzly 10" Cabinet Table Saw G0690
- Grizzly 6" X 55-1/2 Jointer
- Grizzly 3 HP Shaper G1026
- Grizzly 2 HP Canister Dust Collector G0548ZP
- Dewalt 12" Chop Saw double Bevel
- Kobalt 3.7 HP 60 Gallon Air Compressor
- Almost all my hand tools are Ridgid
- Delta 31-481 26 Dual Drum Sander

I have been asked why Grizzly the cost is one for me but most machines at this level are made by the same factor in China. Attached is some common 15" planners and you will see that they are all the same with the exception of the cabinet they are identical in cutters and feed systems. I only own one Dewalt tool and that is the chop saw because I fill that it is the best chop saw out there. My hand tools are Ridgid because they work great and free batteries under the "lifetime warranty". Bad batteries really don't happen much in my experience, I'm still using batters that are 14 years old. I had a lithium battery that was 2 years old, that had the indicator charge light get stuck on and that battery would not charge after it was 100% dead. I called Ridgid they asked what the battery charger was doing when I put the battery on it and then sent a new battery without sending the bad battery back. That is great customer serves. The Detla drum sander because I owned one before and it works great, at that time it was being made by Steel City Tools but they are identical sanders in every way.

This is my opinions and not everyone needs to agree with them. I am always open for a discussion on why you agree or disagree with me.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 02:27 AM
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I would angle the ....

In your floor plan, there is not much room in front of the table saw, so I would angle it to allow for longer rips. I've had occasion to rip 10 ft and even 12 ft pieces and had to open the French doors to allow the pieces to go outside. My 15" planer and 24" dual drum and 12" single drum sanders are also angled for the same reason.

Ripping or resawing on the bandsaws which are on casters, is not a frequent occurance, but when needed I can angle them also. My large table saw is not moving anywhere at 10 ft wide. The smaller one is on casters so It can move around if needed.

I'm interested in the design of your blast gates as some tend to trap chips and others don't fully open. I don't use them except under each of the 3 tablesaws which comprise the "sawzilla" to increase the efficiency. There's a 4" PVC pipe that connects them and runs directly to one of the Jet 1100's with a 3 ft flex hose so I can select each one separately. I have also experimented with over the blade dust collection/safety guards with pretty good results:


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 04:06 AM
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dust vs chips

In my experience, I've come to understand the difference between dust and chips, and it's really as simple a particle size. However, that means you need different means to most efficiently collect and move them through the "systems". I use the word systems because you have high velocity low volume as in shop vacs, lower velocity high volume as in a dust collector and airborne dust and each has it's own place in a "dust free" shop......

Sanding make some fine powdery dust, routing and sawing makes medium size particles and planing and jointing makes the largest size particles, chips. The drum sanders are a dust making factory. The table and RAS/miter saws generate a fair share, the bandsaw is a sleeper and can make a lot of smaller dust, and obviously the planer and jointer make volumes of chips in a short while. I have found I can't collect it all no matter what I do and some ends up airborne, so the overhead air filtration is a must. I use a Jet AFS 1000. http://www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/...521&CADEVICE=c

I didn't see any mention of the over head air filter in your list, so that's why I brought it up. Also shop vacs have a real important place in my shop, especially on the RAS,the 14" bandsaws, the router tables and the small 4" X 36" bench sander. The router tables have a port right behind the cutterhead where the dust get generated so it's important to collect it right there.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 07:04 AM
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most design efforts begin with the load requirements (i.e. port sizes & flows on equipment), then choose a dust collector that is capable of the needed [email protected]


you asked for opinions

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post #9 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 08:39 AM
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Exactly, but most woodworker don't do that .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPa View Post
most design efforts begin with the load requirements (i.e. port sizes & flows on equipment), then choose a dust collector that is capable of the needed [email protected]


you asked for opinions
In addition, Bill Pentz studies also refer to the CFM needed for each machine. Kinda what I was getting at above by discussing different volumes and different particle sizes:


The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 01:27 PM
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One thing I might add, if you are using snap lock steel pipe, duct mastic works better than anything to seal the pipe airtight, it is a little nasty but it will seal the best

Here is their website:https://www.carlislehvac.com/product.aspx?id=66
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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Yes I have two overhead air filtration units
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Duct Mastic is great at sealing I do agree but it gets everywhere.
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post #13 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
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(In your floor plan, there is not much room in front of the table saw, so I would angle it to allow for longer rips)
What you don't see is a 22-foot wide garage door behind the table saw so I can rip up to 12' boards
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-31-2017, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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(most design efforts begin with the load requirements (i.e. port sizes & flows on equipment), then choose a dust collector that is capable of the needed [email protected]
you asked for opinions)


That calculation said that I needed a dust collector that can pull 4060 CFM and that cost about $6000.00 dollars with a 10 HP motor. I really don't want to pay the power bill on that machine and by adding blast gates I can get the correct CFM to each machine with 2 HP dust collector.
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post #15 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 07:36 AM
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there was no implication that the "needed cfm" represented the total of all machines, it is expected to operate with gates on the unused equipment. most systems will have 1-3 machines full open (ts, planer, jointer), with the other less frequently used machines on gates (miter saw, router, sander, etc.).


or, if you can afford it, place automatic gates on all devices ($80 - $100 ea). I think they can be built for less...


please don't mind my babbling, proceed with your build.
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post #16 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 07:56 AM
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Air flow meter?

Will you use an anemometer to measure the air flow, something like this?
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The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

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post #17 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellarosecabinets View Post
Duct Mastic is great at sealing I do agree but it gets everywhere.

Use a 2 inch brush and take your time it doesn't have to be messy and will seal better then anything

In the last Wood magazine they were listing the prices for different materials, PVC, Snap Lock, Spiral ETC, I would love to be selling them the snaplock pipe and fittings for the price they had posted, it was about 10 times the cost of it
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post #18 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 12:49 PM
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OMG this thread is hardcore about DC. I love it! I want to design one for my garage. It won't be this posh, but I'd love to follow this and see what turns out from this.
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post #19 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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(there was no implication that the "needed CFM" represented the total of all machines, it is expected to operate with gates on the unused equipment. most systems will have 1-3 machines full open (ts, planer, jointer), with the other less frequently used machines on gates (miter saw, router, sander, etc.).)

With Dust Collector size, it wasn't all the machines CFM just added up. When you add the loss of CFM from Static Pressure and all the open Ports the numbers goes up fast. The total CFM and machines max static pressure are also driving the cost up on the dust collection system. Because most of the machines at this level use Induction Motors it cheaper to keep all ports closed except the one being used. This will help on the power bill and your marriage. I also close all blast gates when changing from using one machine to another, that will also save power and help to cool the motor. I know it sounds wrong to close all the blast gates, but this will decrease the load on the dust collect. In turn, increase the motor speed which helps increase air from the cooling fan mounted on the back of the motor. With more air and less power being used the motor will cool. (remember this is only for Induction Motors)

So I only run one blast gate at a time and I will show you how to fully electronically control the blast gate for close to 65 dollars per gate.
The $100 dollars only gets you 4" blast gate and not the controller you will need. For that, you will need to add $65 more dollars and those don't always work for every tool.

Good youtube video about induction motors

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post #20 of 24 Old 02-01-2017, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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For air Flow, I use two tools a Mass air flow sensor and an atmospheric pressure gauge. Both can be added to the system without disconnecting the machines from the system.
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