Why do I get these "spots"? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Why do I get these "spots"?

HI guys. Was hoping you could give me some advice of this issue, It's happened one other time to me and I have no idea (well I kinda do) what it is. After applying my stain, I normally use a wood sanding sealer. I then go over that with fine steel wool and go on to apply my poly coats (or whatever I'm sealing it with). On this particular piece, I grabbed the wrong one. I used a wood sealer instead of the sanding sealer. I usually don't have issues with the seal coat except if I happen to sand a little to rough. On this top, I had a little excess so I used a 220 very lightly to remove the "glob". Well, in doing so, a bit of the stain came with it. So I had a light spot. I tried touching it up with stain to match the surrounding color, but it won't penetrate. I tried sanding more to see if I could get down to the wood, but no luck. Now I just made it more noticeable. This happened one other time to an oak top I was working on. I should just leave well enough alone! Is it because the sealer has done it's job and won't let the stain through?? I even tried some denatured alcohol around the area to see if it would "lift" the sealer. not happening. So, any advice here?? I really dont want to start over, as the rest of the stain came out beautifully. (IMO!) Some might not notice the light spot, but it bothers me. The rest of the piece is getting painted. Also, any idea what kind of wood veneer this is?
My background is,,,I've done a lot of finishing work. I'm no pro, but I'm no newbie either. I restore a lot of furniture pieces by painting. However, I always try to refinish the wood if it's savable. This buffet top was in very good condition. I mixed a few different colors as I wanted it a bit darker. Pic 1 shows after stain but before I put on sealer, #2-after sealer and sanding, #3 a close-up of the spot that lightened and wont take stain. The last picture is the before photo.
Thanks in advance Beth
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Last edited by pokerlizard; 04-05-2012 at 06:38 PM. Reason: add another photo
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post #2 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerlizard View Post
HI guys. Was hoping you could give me some advice of this issue, It's happened one other time to me and I have no idea (well I kinda do) what it is. After applying my stain, I normally use a wood sanding sealer. I then go over that with fine steel wool and go on to apply my poly coats (or whatever I'm sealing it with). On this particular piece, I grabbed the wrong one. I used a wood sealer instead of the sanding sealer. I usually don't have issues with the seal coat except if I happen to sand a little to rough. On this top, I had a little excess so I used a 220 very lightly to remove the "glob". Well, in doing so, a bit of the stain came with it. So I had a light spot. I tried touching it up with stain to match the surrounding color, but it won't penetrate. I tried sanding more to see if I could get down to the wood, but no luck. Now I just made it more noticeable. This happened one other time to an oak top I was working on. I should just leave well enough alone! Is it because the sealer has done it's job and won't let the stain through?? I even tried some denatured alcohol around the area to see if it would "lift" the sealer. not happening. So, any advice here?? I really dont want to start over, as the rest of the stain came out beautifully. (IMO!) Some might not notice the light spot, but it bothers me. The rest of the piece is getting painted. Also, any idea what kind of wood veneer this is?
My background is,,,I've done a lot of finishing work. I'm no pro, but I'm no newbie either. I restore a lot of furniture pieces by painting. However, I always try to refinish the wood if it's savable. This buffet top was in very good condition. I mixed a few different colors as I wanted it a bit darker. Pic 1 shows after stain but before I put on sealer, #2-after sealer and sanding, #3 a close-up of the spot that lightened and wont take stain.
Thanks in advance Beth
Hi Beth, A little confusing on your terms and not knowing for sure just what it is your using except for the named "poly", lol.

The term "sanding sealer" normally refers to a nitrocellulose based coating, the term "wood sealer" could mean a universal type such as an alkyd, or other such as zinnsers "sealcoat", if you can verify just what your using ok? Also it would be nice to know the type of stain your applying and going over, lol

Beyond this, your probably on the right track as to the sealer penetrating the stain/wood and keeping it from coloring the surface, Just so you know, there are touch up powders [dry powders] used to repair such places as this that you can mix universally ok? it takes some practice but i would initially recommend you get the primary wood colors in monochromatic color and a couple of artist brushes and learn the processes since it sound like you plan on continuing your career in this field, ok?

Till we here back...............
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post #3 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Chemmy. I was just coming back to edit...
Sanded with 150, 220 till I got to bare wood.
Minwax pre-stain. re-sanded with 350
I used Minwax stain,,,,a combo of red mahog, walnut and ebony...2 coats
Zinsser "wax free" universal wood sealer. One coat.
Used 0000 steel, xcept on the one spot that I used a piece of 220 very lightly.
After spot was noticed, tried de-natured alcohol, which seemed to take off some of the sealer, but still could not get any stain to penetrate.

What would you recommend from here on out??
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post #4 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:37 PM
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Thanks Chemmy. I was just coming back to edit...
Sanded with 150, 220 till I got to bare wood.
Minwax pre-stain. re-sanded with 350
I used Minwax stain,,,,a combo of red mahog, walnut and ebony...2 coats
Zinsser "wax free" universal wood sealer. One coat.
Used 0000 steel, xcept on the one spot that I used a piece of 220 very lightly.
After spot was noticed, tried de-natured alcohol, which seemed to take off some of the sealer, but still could not get any stain to penetrate.

What would you recommend from here on out??
350 grit, what an odd number, personally i have never seen it? just like a woman to find a grit us pro's can't find and use, lol - [joke]

First try using a curved blade Ex-acto knife to remove the sealer without going past the affected area, then fine sanding to smooth and re-apply the stain and let set for a few minutes before wiping ok? if that greatly improves it but still not perfect do the procedures once again. I will try to guide you but as earlier stated the real answer is the touch up powders that can be mixed with shellac or poly or any other coating or solvent ok?
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post #5 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerlizard View Post
Thanks Chemmy. I was just coming back to edit...
Sanded with 150, 220 till I got to bare wood.
Minwax pre-stain. re-sanded with 350
I used Minwax stain,,,,a combo of red mahog, walnut and ebony...2 coats
Zinsser "wax free" universal wood sealer. One coat.
Used 0000 steel, xcept on the one spot that I used a piece of 220 very lightly.
After spot was noticed, tried de-natured alcohol, which seemed to take off some of the sealer, but still could not get any stain to penetrate.

What would you recommend from here on out??
You could try a small can of gel stain and a small craft brush. Pick a color that's as close as you can get. Or, do a mix like you already did. With the brush, lay a thin layer detailed with the grain and let it dry. Gel stains allow them to be wiped to the desired color. If you try wiping, you may get it on the surrounding area, so be careful.

Or, you can try the stain you've already mixed. Have a dry cloth ready, stir the stain, as pigment may have settled. Wet the end of the brush and dab it on the cloth until it's barely wet, and with smooth strokes fill in the light spot.Don't keep working the brush. With the brush just damp, it should stick.

The wood looks like Honduran Mahogany.


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post #6 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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lol..Chemmy, I like you. Ok, so maybe it was the 320. And no, I'm not blonde.

So this exacto knife procedure, is there somewhere I can look to see how thats done?? ( I only have a straight edge one) How to do this w/o gouging the wood? If I did the powder mixture, will that penetrate the sealer? Or do I still have to perform surgery??
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post #7 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:51 PM
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lol..Chemmy, I like you. Ok, so maybe it was the 320. And no, I'm not blonde.

So this exacto knife procedure, is there somewhere I can look to see how thats done?? ( I only have a straight edge one) How to do this w/o gouging the wood? If I did the powder mixture, will that penetrate the sealer? Or do I still have to perform surgery??
No if you don't have the curved blade you should be able to get it locally at a craft store though, i'm not sure it's a common method just one i've used allot in the past when doing fieldwork repair. so i'm lost as to send you somewhere to see it done, all your doing is "lightly scraping the surface not trying to remove much wood at all, the sanding only the affected area and re-staining. A sharp curved kitchen knife may work also, something sharp with a curved edge ok? Remember your "scraping" not cutting.
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post #8 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Ok Thanks.
Cabinetman.....I tried using some of the stain mixture, but it just sits on top. Are you saying paint it on and let it completely dry? I tried that before on a different piece, and when I fine sanded, it just came right off.
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post #9 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by pokerlizard View Post

So this exacto knife procedure, is there somewhere I can look to see how thats done?? ( I only have a straight edge one) How to do this w/o gouging the wood? If I did the powder mixture, will that penetrate the sealer? Or do I still have to perform surgery??
I would try surface coloring before doing any scraping. If the top is a veneer you could perforate the face. If you scrape too deep, you cold leave a divot.







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post #10 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:04 PM
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Ok Thanks.
Cabinetman.....I tried using some of the stain mixture, but it just sits on top. Are you saying paint it on and let it completely dry? I tried that before on a different piece, and when I fine sanded, it just came right off.
Yes...let it dry. Don't sand it off.




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post #11 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:09 PM
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C'man is correct about possibly divoting the area, but like i stated, your only removing enough to allow penetration of the stain just make 3-4 passes at a time and stain to see where your at so as to not over scrape, if a minute difference in levels is gotten it will only take spot coating the area with an artist brush to level it out with the surrounding area.
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post #12 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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okey dokey. Going out to try it now!
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post #13 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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woo-hoo! I think that did the trick. As it turned out, my husband gave me his box of x acto knives so I did have the curved blade. Once I got to scraping, I understood and started to feather the edges all artistic-like. I applied the stain and it worked! Of course I know it was touched up, but I don't think the average person will notice a difference. At least the spot doesn't stand out like a sore thumb. Thanks to both of you for your help!
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post #14 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 07:54 PM
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woo-hoo! I think that did the trick. As it turned out, my husband gave me his box of x acto knives so I did have the curved blade. Once I got to scraping, I understood and started to feather the edges all artistic-like. I applied the stain and it worked! Of course I know it was touched up, but I don't think the average person will notice a difference. At least the spot doesn't stand out like a sore thumb. Thanks to both of you for your help!
Good, now after you seal if you need to blend it more just apply a real light coat of the stain [thinned down if necessary
or if it's a little to dark already, then "lightly" and i do mean lightly, go over it with 4/0 steel wool, you can also do that to any surrounding area that it may have slightly darkened also ok?

After coating with a spot of shellac after drying, remember you may have to spot build an extra coat of two of poly on the affected area inbetween coats so that any unlevelness is compensated for ok? Then sand everything flat and final coat.

I also believe this whole thing was the fault of the 350 paper, next time use 391 grit ok

Last edited by chemmy; 04-05-2012 at 08:00 PM.
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post #15 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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Ok will do. So just to clarify,,,,,just go over that one spot with the zinsser seal coat,,,,hit it with the 4/0 and then my top coat. What kind of top coat would you recommend?? This is a buffet, will be sold, so I don't know how much use it will get. Probably nothing out of the ordinary. Also, on a piece this long, the brush marks are too difficult. I have 3 different brands of poly (water and oil base), Deft seems leave the least amount of brush marks. I've also tried the wipe-on poly, but wasn't that impressed. I do have a HVLP sprayer tho. Haven't tried it with any stains or varnish. So? What would you use??
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post #16 of 16 Old 04-05-2012, 08:20 PM
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Ok will do. So just to clarify,,,,,just go over that one spot with the zinsser seal coat,,,,hit it with the 4/0 and then my top coat. What kind of top coat would you recommend?? This is a buffet, will be sold, so I don't know how much use it will get. Probably nothing out of the ordinary. Also, on a piece this long, the brush marks are too difficult. I have 3 different brands of poly (water and oil base), Deft seems leave the least amount of brush marks. I've also tried the wipe-on poly, but wasn't that impressed. I do have a HVLP sprayer tho. Haven't tried it with any stains or varnish. So? What would you use??
Having an HVLP sprayer and having used it to actually spray are two different things, let us know if this is so as to your use of it ok? Very easy to get runs or sags without first practicing and knowing the basics, this is something you don't want to learn over the internet in words, search for videos at least spraying something in the neighborhood of what your spraying ok?

That said, i'm a solvent man so solvent poly in your case would be my choice, i won't speak for C'man, but i would wager it will have something to do with an aqueous substance.

With the solvent base i would apply 2 coats sanding in between with 379 grit paper [joke] this will provide best protection and looks, though if you want you can give it more coats.
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