Tinting CAB acrylic lacquer - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 Old 07-05-2017, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Tinting CAB acrylic lacquer

I'm in the process of refinishing an electric guitar. In the past, I have used nitrocellulose lacquer for something like this but I know that it will yellow with age and can be very brittle. I've been considering other options that might give me a more durable finish that won't yellow over time and I think I've settled on CAB acrylic lacquer but I have one question.

I'm doing a burst pattern with a translucent blue in the center of the instrument that fades to a solid black near the edges. I have a blue stain that I can use to get the translucent blue that I need but I'm having trouble finding a black pigment that I can add to the CAB acrylic lacquer to get an opaque black.

I'm assuming since it is an acrylic lacquer that it is waterborne and so I could use any black pigment suitable for waterborne finishes, is that correct?

I'm planning to use SW Sher-wood CAB acrylic and I see in the PDS (here) that it can be tinted with chroma chem 844 colorants but I haven't found a good local source for those so I'm hoping that I can find some alternative.


I considered using a polyurethane but it sounds like that can be difficult to spray so I passed on that for now. Maybe I should reconsider that decision.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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post #2 of 10 Old 07-05-2017, 07:51 PM
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If you use a type of lacquer known as cab-acrylic or butyrate lacquer it is completely compatible with nitro lacquer and will remain clear. Precatalyzed lacquer could also be used but is not quite as compatible. It's a harder lacquer than nitro and may crack if too much is used. If you are just wanting to tint clear lacquer a little you can use this dye stain. It can be mixed with the lacquer or sprayed on a dried finish and coated over with clear. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/cata...asp?ictNbr=178 This dye is very transparent. If you are wanting more coverage it would be better if you purchased a production lacquer in the color you want and intermixing it with the lacquer you are using. On a very limited basis you can mix a universal tinting color to lacquer but it doesn't like it. You have to shake it constantly to keep the pigment from settling to the bottom of the sprayer.
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post #3 of 10 Old 07-05-2017, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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So, a couple dumb questions.

Is CAB acrylic waterborne or solvent based? I would assume solvent if it is compatible with nitro but I I also thought water since it's acrylic.

When you say it's compatible, do you mean they can be mixed or just that I can spray the CAB over the nitro? What impact does it have on the durability? Does the brittle-ness of the nitro make the overall combination less durable?

If it's compatible with nitro, does that mean that the black pigment I use with nitro will work with the CAB acrylic?

I don't want the black to be transparent so maybe I need to get some production black lacquer. Any recommendations?

Last edited by mh0520; 07-05-2017 at 09:51 PM.
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post #4 of 10 Old 07-05-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mh0520 View Post
So, a couple dumb questions.

Is CAB acrylic waterborne or solvent based? I would assume solvent if it is compatible with nitro but I I also thought water since it's acrylic.

When you say it's compatible, do you mean they can be mixed or just that I can spray the CAB over the nitro? What impact does it have on the durability? Does the brittle-ness of the nitro make the overall combination less durable?

If it's compatible with nitro, does that mean that the black pigment I use with nitro will work with the CAB acrylic?

I don't want the black to be transparent so maybe I need to get some production black lacquer. Any recommendations?
OK, I can't answer that question. Many paint companies are making water based finishes and even though they are a completely different product they confuse the H out of everyone by calling it by the same name. Any reference I made about cab-acrylic lacquer is the solvent type. It's the only kind I have ever used.

The solvent based cab-acrylic lacquer can be mixed with nitro lacquer. I think it would help if I describe the difference. The finished coating is a resin. The resin used to make nitro is made by dissolving cotton in nitric acid. Since it is made from cotton it's prone to yellow like an old cotton tee shirt. Cab-acrylic lacquer is made from plastic resin similar to plexiglass. Since the resin is the only difference they can be mixed together however the more nitro that is used the more prone to yellowing it is.

Sherwin Williams makes a production lacquer. Since most of their stores cater to house painting you may have to order it. You probably can't get less than a gallon. Mohawk probably also sells a pigmented lacquer online. I know they have a wide variety of products at the store I buy supplies from.
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post #5 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 07:58 AM Thread Starter
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At least I'm not the only one confused by all the names.

Thanks for all the info. It's much appreciated.

As a rule of thumb, I'm taking that to mean that the two can be mixed but the more nitro is mixed in the more the compound takes on nitro's properties, i.e. yellowing and brittle-ness.

I'll try my colorants in some scrap material and see how it goes.
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post #6 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 02:33 PM
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Every CAB Acrylic I have ever seen is a solvent based product. What is the brand/type of CAB you are using?? I might can look it up........

Either way, you can use any Universal dye product to tint the CAB acrylic. Trans tint comes to mind for example.

Matching colors on different substrates is easy. All it takes is patience and beer.
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post #7 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorStylist View Post
Every CAB Acrylic I have ever seen is a solvent based product. What is the brand/type of CAB you are using?? I might can look it up........

Either way, you can use any Universal dye product to tint the CAB acrylic. Trans tint comes to mind for example.
It's Sherwin Williams Sher-wood. I'm pretty sure it's solvent based but I just wanted to check.

The dye stain that I'm planning to use should be fine to use with it; it's more the black pigment that I'm concerned about. It's for solvent-based finishes so I think it'll be fine but I'm not 100% certain. Here's a link to the pigment.

http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and...r_Lacquer.html

I'm also reconsidering using a polyurethane, specifically some of the Target Coatings Poly products.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...-polyurethane/
https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...black-lacquer/

I like these because I can get the black premixed but I haven't used waterborne finishes before so it might take some practice. I think I can use the dye that I have as a toner for the clear poly and then use the same clear for the topcoat and use the black lacquer for all my blacks. I was planning on using the clear by itself as a sealer instead of their sanding sealer, any issue with that? It sounds like it is self-sealing.

My only concern is that the black is a satin sheen and I'm looking for a nice glossy finish but I'm assuming that the gloss clear over the satin black will end up with the gloss that I'm looking for, is that true?

The polyurethane also has the added benefit that it's easier to get. :)
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post #8 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorStylist View Post
Every CAB Acrylic I have ever seen is a solvent based product. What is the brand/type of CAB you are using?? I might can look it up........

Either way, you can use any Universal dye product to tint the CAB acrylic. Trans tint comes to mind for example.
It's Sherwin Williams Sher-wood. I'm pretty sure it's solvent based but I just wanted to check.

The dye stain that I'm planning to use should be fine to use with it; it's more the black pigment that I'm concerned about. It's for solvent-based finishes so I think it'll be fine but I'm not 100% certain. Here's a link to the pigment.

http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and...r_Lacquer.html

I'm also reconsidering using a polyurethane, specifically some of the Target Coatings Poly products.

https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...-polyurethane/
https://www.targetcoatings.com/produ...black-lacquer/

I like these because I can get the black premixed but I haven't used waterborne finishes before so it might take some practice. I think I can use the dye that I have as a toner for the clear poly and then use the same clear for the topcoat and use the black lacquer for all my blacks. I was planning on using the clear by itself as a sealer instead of their sanding sealer, any issue with that? It sounds like it is self-sealing.

My only concern is that the black is a satin sheen and I'm looking for a nice glossy finish but I'm assuming that the gloss clear over the satin black will end up with the gloss that I'm looking for, is that true?

The polyurethane also has the added benefit that it's easier to get. :)
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post #9 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorStylist View Post
Every CAB Acrylic I have ever seen is a solvent based product. What is the brand/type of CAB you are using?? I might can look it up........

Either way, you can use any Universal dye product to tint the CAB acrylic. Trans tint comes to mind for example.
It's Sherwin Williams Sher-wood. I'm pretty sure it's solvent based but I just wanted to check.

The dye stain that I'm planning to use should be fine to use with it; it's more the black pigment that I'm concerned about. It's for solvent-based finishes so I think it'll be fine but I'm not 100% certain. The pigment that I'm using is Stewart MacDonald ColorTone Liquid Pigment for Lacquer

I'm also reconsidering using a polyurethane, specifically some of the Target Coatings Poly products.

Emtech SuperClear 9000 Waterborne Polyurethane
Emtech EM6600 Raven Black Lacquer

I like these because I can get the black premixed but I haven't used waterborne finishes before so it might take some practice. I think I can use the dye that I have as a toner for the clear poly and then use the same clear for the topcoat and use the black lacquer for all my blacks. I was planning on using the clear by itself as a sealer instead of their sanding sealer, any issue with that? It sounds like it is self-sealing.

My only concern is that the black is a satin sheen and I'm looking for a nice glossy finish but I'm assuming that the gloss clear over the satin black will end up with the gloss that I'm looking for, is that true?

The polyurethane also has the added benefit that it's easier to get. :)
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post #10 of 10 Old 07-06-2017, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mh0520 View Post
It's Sherwin Williams Sher-wood. I'm pretty sure it's solvent based but I just wanted to check.

The dye stain that I'm planning to use should be fine to use with it; it's more the black pigment that I'm concerned about. It's for solvent-based finishes so I think it'll be fine but I'm not 100% certain. The pigment that I'm using is Stewart MacDonald ColorTone Liquid Pigment for Lacquer

I'm also reconsidering using a polyurethane, specifically some of the Target Coatings Poly products.

Emtech SuperClear 9000 Waterborne Polyurethane
Emtech EM6600 Raven Black Lacquer

I like these because I can get the black premixed but I haven't used waterborne finishes before so it might take some practice. I think I can use the dye that I have as a toner for the clear poly and then use the same clear for the topcoat and use the black lacquer for all my blacks. I was planning on using the clear by itself as a sealer instead of their sanding sealer, any issue with that? It sounds like it is self-sealing.

My only concern is that the black is a satin sheen and I'm looking for a nice glossy finish but I'm assuming that the gloss clear over the satin black will end up with the gloss that I'm looking for, is that true?

The polyurethane also has the added benefit that it's easier to get. :)
If you want a high gloss, then use the T75C15 sherwood CAB acrylic. That line of CAB acrylic is solvent based.

Matching colors on different substrates is easy. All it takes is patience and beer.
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