Staining over sealer? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 13 Old 02-24-2019, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Staining over sealer?

Hey,

I'm trying to reduce blotchyness by sealing the wood first before staining with some lacquer sealer but it seems that the stain that I applied afterwards is hardly being absorbed into the wood.

I thought maybe the coat of sealer I applied was too thick so I sanded it down a little and restained the piece but to no avail. I don't have access to stain conditioners as an alternative.

On another note, and this is a dumb question but is it possible to make a particle board look and feel like real wood without veneering?

Would really appreciate any advice.

Thanks!
wooody is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 13 Old 02-24-2019, 07:41 AM
Moderator
 
John Smith_inFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,351
View John Smith_inFL's Photo Album My Photos
particle board is just that - particles of wood.
it will never look like wood (as we think of wood boards).
you could fill the pores with epoxy, sand smooth and paint the
wood grain on it with an assortment of tools and brushes if you wanted.
veneer or plastic laminate is used for a reason on particle board.

why do you ask ??

.

.

I am a painter: that's what I do, I like to paint things.

Last edited by John Smith_inFL; 02-24-2019 at 07:44 AM.
John Smith_inFL is online now  
post #3 of 13 Old 02-24-2019, 09:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Your sealer wasn't watered down enough to allow the stain to penetrate. What you were doing with the sealer is make a homemade wood conditioner. With a conditioner you have to tinker with the formula on some scrap wood to get the mix right before using it on a project. At this point about all you could do is to use a gel stain or chemically strip it back to bare wood and start over. A gel stain is more similar to thinned down paint. It doesn't penetrate the wood, it just spreads color over the top. It has a pasty painted look but is easier.

Particle board will always look like particle board. If you want it to look like wood the only option would be to paint it with a base color and go over it with a glaze doing a woodgraining. It's a process where you literally paint wood grain on the paint to simulate wood. It's a difficult process and one of those things that is becoming a lost art. It would be much easier if you wanted a wood look to use wood.
Steve Neul is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 03:05 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Your sealer wasn't watered down enough to allow the stain to penetrate. What you were doing with the sealer is make a homemade wood conditioner. With a conditioner you have to tinker with the formula on some scrap wood to get the mix right before using it on a project. At this point about all you could do is to use a gel stain or chemically strip it back to bare wood and start over. A gel stain is more similar to thinned down paint. It doesn't penetrate the wood, it just spreads color over the top. It has a pasty painted look but is easier.

Particle board will always look like particle board. If you want it to look like wood the only option would be to paint it with a base color and go over it with a glaze doing a woodgraining. It's a process where you literally paint wood grain on the paint to simulate wood. It's a difficult process and one of those things that is becoming a lost art. It would be much easier if you wanted a wood look to use wood.
Yea I think the sealer wasn't watered down enough. I ended up stripping the piece to scratch and staining it first. Thanks for your help!
wooody is offline  
post #5 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Smith_inFL View Post
particle board is just that - particles of wood.
it will never look like wood (as we think of wood boards).
you could fill the pores with epoxy, sand smooth and paint the
wood grain on it with an assortment of tools and brushes if you wanted.
veneer or plastic laminate is used for a reason on particle board.

why do you ask ??

.

.
Yea I kinda figured but wasn't too sure. Just asking out of curiosity as I'm working on a project with half wood and half particle/mdf boards with no prior experience. Thanks for your insights!
wooody is offline  
post #6 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 04:10 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 176
View fareastern's Photo Album My Photos
I think the key issue here is that the sealer has done what it is supposed to-it has sealed the surface.Sanding may not help much as some will inevitably have soaked in a bit.I have seen MDF with a marbled surface that was incredibly realistic,but never particle board looking like anything else.I fear you will be disappointed in your quest.Even if you resort to veneer there will still be a need to apply a balance veneer to the reverse of the piece.Would it be better to find a piece of veneered board and start from there?
fareastern is offline  
post #7 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 06:20 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by fareastern View Post
I think the key issue here is that the sealer has done what it is supposed to-it has sealed the surface.Sanding may not help much as some will inevitably have soaked in a bit.I have seen MDF with a marbled surface that was incredibly realistic,but never particle board looking like anything else.I fear you will be disappointed in your quest.Even if you resort to veneer there will still be a need to apply a balance veneer to the reverse of the piece.Would it be better to find a piece of veneered board and start from there?
Ya after I restriped and sanded the piece, the surface was still smooth from the sealer already being soaked in.

Im refinishing a piano that has particle boards for the side panels wasn't sure what to about those boards but I think I will end up veneering it
wooody is offline  
post #8 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 07:59 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooody View Post
Ya after I restriped and sanded the piece, the surface was still smooth from the sealer already being soaked in.

Im refinishing a piano that has particle boards for the side panels wasn't sure what to about those boards but I think I will end up veneering it
There is just endless methods of making a wood conditioner. Anything that will dry completely in the wood could be used. You could thin what ever finish you are using or even wood glue. The trick with anything though is to get it thinned right. To do that you have to go by trial and error on scraps first before putting it on a project.

I can't picture a piano constructed using particleboard. If the particle board is exposed it must have at one time been covered with veneer and someone removed it. I think if it were me I would mud the particleboard with spackle and paint the piano a solid color.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #9 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooody View Post
Ya after I restriped and sanded the piece, the surface was still smooth from the sealer already being soaked in.

Im refinishing a piano that has particle boards for the side panels wasn't sure what to about those boards but I think I will end up veneering it
There is just endless methods of making a wood conditioner. Anything that will dry completely in the wood could be used. You could thin what ever finish you are using or even wood glue. The trick with anything though is to get it thinned right. To do that you have to go by trial and error on scraps first before putting it on a project.

I can't picture a piano constructed using particleboard. If the particle board is exposed it must have at one time been covered with veneer and someone removed it. I think if it were me I would mud the particleboard with spackle and paint the piano a solid color.
ya the pboards were veenered previously. I stripped it off just to see what was underneath out of curiosity. Thats helpful, will definitely try to make my own conditioner.

one last question, would it be viable to use wood filler/putty as an outer layer to your wood and then finishing it as you would normally finish wood? Say if I were to cover up the entire particle board with wood filler or would it just crumble off over time?
wooody is offline  
post #10 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 10:52 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,995
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooody View Post
ya the pboards were veenered previously. I stripped it off just to see what was underneath out of curiosity. Thats helpful, will definitely try to make my own conditioner.

one last question, would it be viable to use wood filler/putty as an outer layer to your wood and then finishing it as you would normally finish wood? Say if I were to cover up the entire particle board with wood filler or would it just crumble off over time?
Wood putty would be too soft for that purpose. You could maybe get away with using bondo but even that should be a thin layer. The majority of your leveling should be done with primer.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #11 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wooody View Post
ya the pboards were veenered previously. I stripped it off just to see what was underneath out of curiosity. Thats helpful, will definitely try to make my own conditioner.

one last question, would it be viable to use wood filler/putty as an outer layer to your wood and then finishing it as you would normally finish wood? Say if I were to cover up the entire particle board with wood filler or would it just crumble off over time?
Wood putty would be too soft for that purpose. You could maybe get away with using bondo but even that should be a thin layer. The majority of your leveling should be done with primer.
thanks, appreciate ya
wooody is offline  
post #12 of 13 Old 02-25-2019, 05:14 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: NE
Posts: 231
View Larry42's Photo Album My Photos
What you need to do is what is called a "wash coat." It is commonly done in commercial finishing so that woods that tend to blotch, don't.
What you will find that in addition to getting the sealer thinned correctly is that you spray technique will need to be very good at laying on a very even coat. The amount of material applied will vary with what you are attempting to accomplish. In general if you apply so much that it looks shinny while wet, it is way too much. Next a very light sanding with an abrasive sponge, Clean. Apply stain, use a wiping technique that produces the most even result possible. Next could be either the first finish coat or the toning coat. Toner can be made by just putting a bit of stain in the top coat and using it to get the look you want. That can be darkening the entire surface, correcting unevenness in color or purposely shading. Most of the time several passes with the toner are done so that no hard edges show. It takes considerable practice and a good gun. After the toner put the final top coat on. You may want to vary the amount of top coat, due to the variable amount of coats below the last top, so the sheen is evened out. Finishing really is an art. If you are finishing a porous wood you may want to do a grain fill with a tinted filler. On really porous wood it often takes two filling cycles.
Particle board can look pretty good finished. So can wafer board, OSB. Just don't expect them to look like walnut. And don't use the board, (trash) they sell at the big box stores.
Larry42 is offline  
post #13 of 13 Old 02-26-2019, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 7
View wooody's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry42 View Post
What you need to do is what is called a "wash coat." It is commonly done in commercial finishing so that woods that tend to blotch, don't.
What you will find that in addition to getting the sealer thinned correctly is that you spray technique will need to be very good at laying on a very even coat. The amount of material applied will vary with what you are attempting to accomplish. In general if you apply so much that it looks shinny while wet, it is way too much. Next a very light sanding with an abrasive sponge, Clean. Apply stain, use a wiping technique that produces the most even result possible. Next could be either the first finish coat or the toning coat. Toner can be made by just putting a bit of stain in the top coat and using it to get the look you want. That can be darkening the entire surface, correcting unevenness in color or purposely shading. Most of the time several passes with the toner are done so that no hard edges show. It takes considerable practice and a good gun. After the toner put the final top coat on. You may want to vary the amount of top coat, due to the variable amount of coats below the last top, so the sheen is evened out. Finishing really is an art. If you are finishing a porous wood you may want to do a grain fill with a tinted filler. On really porous wood it often takes two filling cycles.
Particle board can look pretty good finished. So can wafer board, OSB. Just don't expect them to look like walnut. And don't use the board, (trash) they sell at the big box stores.
Thank you for the detailed advice. Will apply them in future works, appreciate it!
wooody is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sanding sealer Mikhail2400 Wood Finishing 8 01-12-2019 09:22 PM
Sealer Needed Before Staining Oak? MitchellZ Wood Finishing 3 03-04-2018 01:31 PM
Sanding sealer RR78 General Woodworking Discussion 14 12-05-2017 06:10 PM
vinyl sealer 24% t67 f3 vs t67 f6 fast dry sealer kitchenfinefinish Wood Finishing 8 08-08-2017 08:28 AM
Staining help unionville General Woodworking Discussion 4 03-08-2017 08:07 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome