Saman Wood Stain NOT Dark Enough - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 19 Old 11-06-2018, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Saman Wood Stain NOT Dark Enough

I am staining a table with SamaN water based BLACK stain and I cannot get it dark enough.

The picture shows 3 items 2 table legs and another table part. The table leg on the left has one coat and the table leg on the right has two coats but is hardly much darker.

The other piece has two coats and is considerably darker because (I assume) the wood grain is different.

I would appreciate some feedback on how to get the legs darker. Thank you.

Gary
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post #2 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
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How to make water based stain very dark?

Does anyone have any suggestions that can help with this?
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post #3 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 05:04 PM
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I regularly use black India ink to make black legs on my projects. Not sure how it will work applied over the stain.

Steve
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post #4 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodworker56 View Post
I regularly use black India ink to make black legs on my projects. Not sure how it will work applied over the stain.
Thanks. Not sure I am brave enough to try this yet.

Gary
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post #5 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 07:39 PM
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Had you tried the stain on some scrap wood you could have darkened it with some black universal tinting color. Now the only option you have is a dye stain or ink. If you are not brave enough you can start off with it thinner and do multiple coats or gradually make it more concentrated. With wood stain you only get one shot but dyes you can do over and over.

If you could break your rules and get a sprayer it would be a lot easier. You could spray it over and over until you get the color you want. You could even use dyes between the coats of your finish.
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post #6 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 09:15 PM
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Could he add some black TransTint Dye Concentrate to his dye? TransTint is compatible with water based products.

Depending on what you plan to use for a top coat, you could add a little bit of TransTint to that as well. Progressive coats would get progressively darker. Of course, each coat will obscure the grain a bit, but if you want black...

I just added red TransTint to some shellac I was using as a sealer under lacquer. Worked like a champ.
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post #7 of 19 Old 11-07-2018, 11:29 PM
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Get thee to an art supply place.

Plan A: buy acrylic artist's paint. You want "lamp black" if you can get it, blacker than "bone black".
Then you buy some Matte Medium. This is the goop that acrylic pigments are mixed up in.
You can use this to thin the tube paint to a brushable consistency. Airbrush acrylics are really juicy to paint with.

After all that, use it to hold a matte finish like a varnish overcoat would.



Plan B: Buy the India Ink and buy an extra bottle of gum arabic solution (you may need extra "stickiness")
Then you cover coat that with shellac. It is going to be black.


I find myself carving Raven birds in western red cedar,

they need soot black finishing with deep iridescent purple highlights.
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post #8 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Had you tried the stain on some scrap wood you could have darkened it with some black universal tinting color. Now the only option you have is a dye stain or ink. If you are not brave enough you can start off with it thinner and do multiple coats or gradually make it more concentrated. With wood stain you only get one shot but dyes you can do over and over.

If you could break your rules and get a sprayer it would be a lot easier. You could spray it over and over until you get the color you want. You could even use dyes between the coats of your finish.
Steve, I will try the water diluted dye approach this morning. I did a small test yesterday by applying a third coat of the water based stain and that sure did not work.

Spraying solutions continue to elude me unfortunately.

Thanks.

Gary
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post #9 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quickstep View Post
Could he add some black TransTint Dye Concentrate to his dye? TransTint is compatible with water based products.

Depending on what you plan to use for a top coat, you could add a little bit of TransTint to that as well. Progressive coats would get progressively darker. Of course, each coat will obscure the grain a bit, but if you want black...

I just added red TransTint to some shellac I was using as a sealer under lacquer. Worked like a champ.
I am going to try TransTint black dye diluted with water. I am aware that wood grain will be obscured.

I use oil based poly for top coats and I don't think I can add TransTint black dye to that.

Thanks for the feedback.

Gary
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post #10 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
Get thee to an art supply place.

Plan A: buy acrylic artist's paint. You want "lamp black" if you can get it, blacker than "bone black".
Then you buy some Matte Medium. This is the goop that acrylic pigments are mixed up in.
You can use this to thin the tube paint to a brushable consistency. Airbrush acrylics are really juicy to paint with.

After all that, use it to hold a matte finish like a varnish overcoat would.



Plan B: Buy the India Ink and buy an extra bottle of gum arabic solution (you may need extra "stickiness")
Then you cover coat that with shellac. It is going to be black.


I find myself carving Raven birds in western red cedar,

they need soot black finishing with deep iridescent purple highlights.
Who knew there could be so many solutions. And complicated ones as well. At this point these would be beyond my reach. But thank you for the input.

Gary
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GAF View Post
Steve, I will try the water diluted dye approach this morning. I did a small test yesterday by applying a third coat of the water based stain and that sure did not work.

Spraying solutions continue to elude me unfortunately.

Thanks.

Gary
You have to be very careful using multiple coats of stain. The reason for it is the binder in stain that keeps the pigment suspended is a sealer. Wood if you looked at it through a microscope would look like a cluster of drinking straws. The binder in the stain gets into these pores and plugs them up and seals them. With a second or more coat it doesn't really have a place to go so it tends to lie on the surface. Now the binder isn't thick or hard enough to hold dry pigment to the surface so you essentially have a layer of colored dirt on the surface. It may look nice but when you apply your varnish it will bond to the colored dirt instead of the wood and peal off. Then if you do manage to remove any stain on the surface you further plug the pores of the wood and give the varnish less to bond to and the finish could fail a lot sooner than it should.

This is what makes a dye stain better for that purpose. It's more similar to ink and will bond to the wood without the binder to plug the pores of the wood.
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 11:52 AM
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K.I.S.S. The biggest pair of Ravens that I carved in western red cedar are 4" x 12" x 30" on stone bases.
The price of artists' paint would have killed me.
Local hardware store mixed up a quart of black exterior house paint.

2 coats and those carvings still stand in Vancouver's rain.
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post #13 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
You have to be very careful using multiple coats of stain. The reason for it is the binder in stain that keeps the pigment suspended is a sealer. Wood if you looked at it through a microscope would look like a cluster of drinking straws. The binder in the stain gets into these pores and plugs them up and seals them. With a second or more coat it doesn't really have a place to go so it tends to lie on the surface. Now the binder isn't thick or hard enough to hold dry pigment to the surface so you essentially have a layer of colored dirt on the surface. It may look nice but when you apply your varnish it will bond to the colored dirt instead of the wood and peal off. Then if you do manage to remove any stain on the surface you further plug the pores of the wood and give the varnish less to bond to and the finish could fail a lot sooner than it should.

This is what makes a dye stain better for that purpose. It's more similar to ink and will bond to the wood without the binder to plug the pores of the wood.
Steve, I had learned the hard way and given up years ago that multiple coats of oil based stain was a waste of time and nothing but trouble.

So what I will end up doing is one coat of water based stain followed by coats of water diluted dye till I get the intensity of black that I want.

Thanks again.

Gary
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post #14 of 19 Old 11-08-2018, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian T View Post
K.I.S.S. The biggest pair of Ravens that I carved in western red cedar are 4" x 12" x 30" on stone bases.
The price of artists' paint would have killed me.
Local hardware store mixed up a quart of black exterior house paint.

2 coats and those carvings still stand in Vancouver's rain.
Brian, nice ending to that story. Thanks for sharing.

Gary
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post #15 of 19 Old 11-18-2018, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
Had you tried the stain on some scrap wood you could have darkened it with some black universal tinting color. Now the only option you have is a dye stain or ink. If you are not brave enough you can start off with it thinner and do multiple coats or gradually make it more concentrated. With wood stain you only get one shot but dyes you can do over and over.

If you could break your rules and get a sprayer it would be a lot easier. You could spray it over and over until you get the color you want. You could even use dyes between the coats of your finish.
Steve, I have used your suggestion of multiple coats of TransTint black dye stain to achieve the colour that the customer wanted and she is pleased with the result. Thanks for the advice.

I am almost finished the project but the semi gloss top coating is too shiny. Yesterday I applied one diluted coat of SATIN and it made essentially no difference to the sheen still too shiny.

Is there any other way that I can reduce the sheen?

I have been using Mirka Mirlon 360 grit scuff pads between top coats. Does it make sense to use that to tone down the sheen?

Thanks.

Gary
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post #16 of 19 Old 11-18-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by GAF View Post
Steve, I have used your suggestion of multiple coats of TransTint black dye stain to achieve the colour that the customer wanted and she is pleased with the result. Thanks for the advice.

I am almost finished the project but the semi gloss top coating is too shiny. Yesterday I applied one diluted coat of SATIN and it made essentially no difference to the sheen still too shiny.

Is there any other way that I can reduce the sheen?

I have been using Mirka Mirlon 360 grit scuff pads between top coats. Does it make sense to use that to tone down the sheen?

Thanks.

Gary
There is a substance in a finish called a flattening agent which determines the sheen. It looks like baby powder in dry form and the more of this flattening agent in the finish will determine the sheen. There are places that sell just the flattening agent you can add to the finish or you might buy some of the same finish you are using in a flat sheen and intermix it with what you have. Be sure to measure the amount to mix for further reference. If you can't get either I've known finishers that will take a can of finish that has been sitting and pour off some of the finish out of the can before stirring it. The goo in the bottom of the can when you stir it is the flattening agent and if you pour off the gloss off the top you increase the concentration of flattening agent.
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post #17 of 19 Old 11-20-2018, 07:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
There is a substance in a finish called a flattening agent which determines the sheen. It looks like baby powder in dry form and the more of this flattening agent in the finish will determine the sheen. There are places that sell just the flattening agent you can add to the finish or you might buy some of the same finish you are using in a flat sheen and intermix it with what you have. Be sure to measure the amount to mix for further reference. If you can't get either I've known finishers that will take a can of finish that has been sitting and pour off some of the finish out of the can before stirring it. The goo in the bottom of the can when you stir it is the flattening agent and if you pour off the gloss off the top you increase the concentration of flattening agent.
Steve, I bought a small can on MinWax satin poly and poured off some of the finish before stirring it. Unfortunately the end result was not good there was no reduction in the sheen of the piece. That did not make sense to me.

So I went and bought a small can of Varathane satin poly and did the pour off trick. Wow the flattening agent was very obvious with this brand. And your advice worked. I achieved the desired level of sheen reduction.

Thank you yet again for your continuing advice.

Gary
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post #18 of 19 Old 11-20-2018, 08:46 AM
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Steve, I bought a small can on MinWax satin poly and poured off some of the finish before stirring it. Unfortunately the end result was not good there was no reduction in the sheen of the piece. That did not make sense to me.

So I went and bought a small can of Varathane satin poly and did the pour off trick. Wow the flattening agent was very obvious with this brand. And your advice worked. I achieved the desired level of sheen reduction.

Thank you yet again for your continuing advice.

Gary
The hard part in altering a finish is measuring what you do to it for future reference. The amount you pour off the top will determine just how flat it will go so you need to standardize your satin by pouring out exactly the same amount of finish. Also if the can bounces around a lot in the car going home with it it's sort of like putting it on a paint shaker before pouring off the finish. You might have to let the can sit overnight before doing that. Then what poured off is still usable but it will be gloss or semi-gloss poly.

Minwax products are just odd so I'm not surprised you couldn't modify it. I've never used any of their poly but their stains I've tried to add a universal tinting color to it to alter the color and it wouldn't suspend like any other stain. I even called the company and asked them what I would use and they said there was nothing so when I recommend someone modify a stain I always say stain other than Minwax.
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post #19 of 19 Old 11-21-2018, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
The hard part in altering a finish is measuring what you do to it for future reference. The amount you pour off the top will determine just how flat it will go so you need to standardize your satin by pouring out exactly the same amount of finish. Also if the can bounces around a lot in the car going home with it it's sort of like putting it on a paint shaker before pouring off the finish. You might have to let the can sit overnight before doing that. Then what poured off is still usable but it will be gloss or semi-gloss poly.

Minwax products are just odd so I'm not surprised you couldn't modify it. I've never used any of their poly but their stains I've tried to add a universal tinting color to it to alter the color and it wouldn't suspend like any other stain. I even called the company and asked them what I would use and they said there was nothing so when I recommend someone modify a stain I always say stain other than Minwax.
Steve, I had somewhat anticipated that shaking the can would be an issue so I literally held it in my hand on the ride home which fortunately was a short one. At the end of the day everything worked out with your advice on how to get the depth of color and the sheen that the customer wanted. All ended well. Thanks much.

Gary
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