Oil finish over water dye? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Oil finish over water dye?

It's pretty clear that you can't mix water-based dyes with oil-based finishes, at least in terms of physically mixing the two before applying. But what I can't find a lot of concrete information on is whether or not it's okay to mix them as applied-and-dried layers can you do a water-based dye coat, let it dry/cure, then do oil-based finish coats after that, without any ill effect?

(Specifically thinking of dyeing with something like a Transtint, with Arm-r-Seal on top.)

Thanks!
john
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post #2 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 08:50 PM
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I've been experimenting on some scraps of maple for some cabinet doors I'm building.
1. I sealed with water based shellac - let dry
2. Sanded with 220 to remove raised grain.
3. Applied 2 coats of water based dye - let dry.
4. Applied 2 coats of high gloss varathane
5. Applied a final coat satin varathane to tone down the gloss.

I did this about 3 months agoand there are no adhhesion issues so far.

Below is a pic although the colour didn't come through as it really looks in person.
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post #3 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 08:51 PM
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Putting an oil based finish over a water based dye or stain isn't a problem at all if the water has been dried out of the wood.

I wouldn't feel comfortable mixing a water based dye with an oil based stain and then applying it. I think they would mix like oil and water. There wouldn't be a problem putting a water based dye over an oil based stain if the oil based stain was completely dry.
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post #4 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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Oil based top coat over water based dye (TransTint or powdered) is fine as long as the dye is fully dried in the wood. Been doing it for decades with no issues. I've even used danish oil over water based dye with no problems.
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post #5 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Excellent. Thanks everyone!
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post #6 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bargoon View Post
I've been experimenting on some scraps of maple for some cabinet doors I'm building.
1. I sealed with water based shellac - let dry
2. Sanded with 220 to remove raised grain.
3. Applied 2 coats of water based dye - let dry.
4. Applied 2 coats of high gloss varathane
5. Applied a final coat satin varathane to tone down the gloss.

I did this about 3 months agoand there are no adhhesion issues so far.

Below is a pic although the colour didn't come through as it really looks in person.
I have not heard of water based shellac. Is this a typo or is there such a thing as a water based shellac?

Don in Murfreesboro, TN.
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post #7 of 12 Old 07-09-2018, 10:29 PM
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If you have a can of Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac sitting around, Don, you'll note that clean-up can be accomplished with water. I don't know if that makes it water based, as in you can use water to thin it, but that's what's on the can. I see a listing at HD and Lowe's for water based shellac by Zinsser but I don't see the product when I go to the page. Personally, I use alcohol in shellac flakes.

Add me to the list of those who have used water based aniline dyes for 30+ years and then sprayed lacquer with no issues.

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post #8 of 12 Old 07-10-2018, 08:37 AM
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I have not heard of water based shellac. Is this a typo or is there such a thing as a water based shellac?
I got it from Lee Valley and use it thinned down as a sealer to prevent blotching.

Its difficult to get Bulls Eye Seal Coat (dewaxed) here.

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post #9 of 12 Old 07-10-2018, 09:29 AM
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I have not heard of water based shellac. Is this a typo or is there such a thing as a water based shellac?
There are products called water based shellac. It's difficult to say if it really is shellac or not. A lot of times they come up with a completely different product and slap a name on it that people recognize as a marketing ploy. For example everyone has heard of water based polyurethane. Everybody thinks because of the name it's the same as the oil based polyurethane but it isn't polyurethane at all. It's just an acrylic clear coating they stuck the name polyurethane on so people would buy it.
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post #10 of 12 Old 07-10-2018, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
There are products called water based shellac. It's difficult to say if it really is shellac or not. A lot of times they come up with a completely different product and slap a name on it that people recognize as a marketing ploy. For example everyone has heard of water based polyurethane. Everybody thinks because of the name it's the same as the oil based polyurethane but it isn't polyurethane at all. It's just an acrylic clear coating they stuck the name polyurethane on so people would buy it.
They call it Emtech and claim it's dewaxed shellac that they put through their Emulsion Technology Chemistry process.

Anyway works for me.
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post #11 of 12 Old 07-10-2018, 09:59 PM
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They call it Emtech and claim it's dewaxed shellac that they put through their Emulsion Technology Chemistry process.

Anyway works for me.
That's what I mean. They claim it's shellac but it's all kept a secret. They could put a trace of shellac in the can and call it shellac. I'm sure what ever it is works as described however you don't know how it will hold up over time. I have furniture in my house that was made in the 19th century finished with shellac and it may look aged but isn't coming off.
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post #12 of 12 Old 10-17-2018, 07:33 PM
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I have done water-based dyes and then shellac, no problems here.
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