Lacquer over paint or sealer? complications - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Lacquer over paint or sealer? complications

Good Evening,

I am after advice on here as the other people I do projects with have never had to deal with the issue I am confronted with.

I have an Art Deco period piece made from oak and poplar. Every piece of it was painted over a long time ago - and I do mean every piece including in the drawers inside and out...everything.

I am having it stripped but I know this will not result in all of the paint being gone, there is heavy grain in certain places and other reasons why there will still be paint on it.

The question I have is how to get it from where it is now to a piece that is finished in black lacquer and silver leaf?

I know how to lacquer - I have access to all machinery, spray booths and equipment you can imagine. I usually use the nitrocellulose lacquer as it blends perfect (melts in) and I can build it up to a fantastic finish. I normally have an item stained then shellac & vinyl sealer then lastly I lacquer. But now I have this object that will have paint remaining on it - likely it will be old oil based paint.

After what stripping can be done can be done I will have it sanded to get it into reasonable shape. I considered at this stage applying vinyl sealer or shellac to seal in the paint and give me a surface I can sand down a few times and reapply (either shellac or vinyl sealer) until I get a surface ideal enough for Black Lacquer finish.

Could I apply a primer paint perhaps and get that sanded down and apply more coats to get a reasonable surface?

Should I apply shellac or vinyl sealer over the paint and wood and sand it down and get several coats of that?

I am really lost on this. I know where I am starting, I know where I need to finish but do not know the steps in between as there will be remaining paint there after the stripping and sanding.

Any help or suggestions is very much appreciated.

I am open to all suggestions and ideas on how to reach my goal, no matter how complicated it is.
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post #2 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 05:55 AM
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The good thing is that if there is paint left over in spots after it is stripped, it really will not matter because your painting it black anyway.

I wouldnt use shellac. If you sand the piece some when you get it back or not, wipe it down good with naptha and blow it off either way first before applying anything to remove oils if any.

I would use a sealer, not shellac. I would apply 3-4 good coats of a high solids sealer, sanding each coat in between. The first coat of sealer I would scuff sand with 320 grit, then the other 2-3 coats I would sand with 240. Then I would apply a coat of black, scuff sand with 320, then apply another coat of black, scuff sand with 320 and apply 2 coats of acrylic lacquer and that will give you extra depth. Its sounds like alot of work, but you will be pleased with the end result.

If your going to apply silver leaf, of course do that after the 2nd coat of black and apply 2 coats of acrylic lacquer.

I just finished an oak piece where the grain had to be filled in completely. Of course we were out of pre fillers so I had to apply 4 coats of sealer to get a complete grain fill, so I know you should be ok with the above.
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post #3 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 06:31 AM
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I have finished a number of oak pieces. I always use a good grain filler.

I know they make a white lacquer primer. If they also have that in black I would then use that.

I always put on at least 4 or 5 coats (or more) of lacquer. The last few coats are progressively thinned.

George
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post #4 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 06:55 AM
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If you're just using lacquer, Sherwin Williams makes an excellent primer in black, P61B1 OPEX lacquer primer surfacer. It fills really well and dries really fast as well as giving you a perfect black base to paint your black lacquer over. I would use polyester primer myself but that requires a professional shop.
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post #5 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
I have finished a number of oak pieces. I always use a good grain filler.

I know they make a white lacquer primer. If they also have that in black I would then use that.

I always put on at least 4 or 5 coats (or more) of lacquer. The last few coats are progressively thinned.

George
I would always use a pre fill on oak as well, but like I said, at the time we didnt have it in stock and a customer needed the panel the next morning. Of course when I wrote up the finishing schedule, I put in it a step for an inert filler on this particular color.

But yes, I would use a pre fill on any deep grain wood if you need a smooth flat finish. I was just stressing the point that he can get it with applying extra coats of high build sealer.

In this particular case, I dont think he will have to use a wood filler at all.

Last edited by RandyReed; 10-31-2014 at 09:28 AM.
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post #6 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 09:52 AM
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Welcome to the club.

I don't know if I would have the furniture stripped. If the paint is in good condition you might be able to lacquer right over it after being cleaned. If it does have oil based paint you would probably have to recoat it with oil. That isn't a problem except for drying time and dust. You would have to be more patient and have a cleaner working condition. The newer oil based finishes are drying faster and would dry to touch usually within 2 hours. I like Pro-Classic oil based enamel from Sherwin Williams.

If you are having the furniture stripped be sure they don't dip the furniture as oak does really bad in a sodium hydroxide tank. It causes the grain to crack wide open which would need a ton of spackle to fill. If they have a flow over tank they should be able to almost all the paint off. There should be only a few spots in cracks or crevasses the paint didn't come completely out.

If you do strip to bare wood I would use a grain filler on the oak first. Then if you can get it in your area I would have some Bushwacker white lacquer primer tinted to a dark gray and prime the wood with that. It covers quick and is as easy to sand as automotive primer. Bushwacker is sold through Sherwin Williams. I wouldn't use shellac or the vinyl sealer, the lacquer primer is more than enough to seal the wood. Depending on the condition of the wood it might take two coats of primer and sand after each coat with 220 grit sandpaper. If the grain filler didn't do it's job and the grain still shows you can keep priming until you level the finish.

Also keep in mind when you prime or seal over grain filler it causes the grain filler to swell out of the grain. If you don't allow it to completely dry you end up sanding the finish level and when the filler shrinks back into the grain it shows the grain again in the finish as though you never used the grain filler. For this reason I never sand on the same day I spray the primer or sealer. I spray primer on and allow it to dry until the next morning before sanding it. With primer though you can sand more aggressive where you are going through it in a spot here and there and it doesn't hurt anything.
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post #7 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Advice very appreciated

All the advice given is in the same vein, "feathers of a bird" so to speak.

I am off to the hardware store to get the stripper and once that epic battle with paint removal is accomplished, I will head off to Sherwin Williams (I have always had great results with their products).

I will get some before and after shots of the piece.

The help is really appreciated, let's see if I can do it right and not screw it up.

I will be back on here in a flash is something major goes wrong, otherwise a few weeks with finished pics - I hope!
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post #8 of 8 Old 10-31-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsax View Post
All the advice given is in the same vein, "feathers of a bird" so to speak.

I am off to the hardware store to get the stripper and once that epic battle with paint removal is accomplished, I will head off to Sherwin Williams (I have always had great results with their products).

I will get some before and after shots of the piece.

The help is really appreciated, let's see if I can do it right and not screw it up.

I will be back on here in a flash is something major goes wrong, otherwise a few weeks with finished pics - I hope!
If the finish is enamel I've had good luck with Kleen Strip remover. Keep in mind this time of year isn't good for do it yourself paint stripping. Removers don't do well at all be below 70 degrees. I have suspended refinishing myself for the season and I'm in north Texas because I don't have the means of heating the remover. For the do it yourselfer using stripper needs to be done outdoors because the methylene chloride in the chemical is a carcinogen which shouldn't be breathed.
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