Lacquer coat turned cloudy - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
Lacquer coat turned cloudy

Never used lacquer before so I thought I would give it a try. I included a picture as is worth 1000 words but I was very disappointed to see what looked so nice as it was drying now looks horrible. The research I did indicated this problem is caused by moisture, Yet it was 77° and 19% humidity when I applied the coat so I don’t think that could be it. At this point is my best bet to just use a bunch of mineral spirits and sanding to try to remove it I’m at a loss for how to try to salvage this appreciate any input thank you.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image_1591451888890.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	349.1 KB
ID:	390695  


-John
jdmm is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
I should clarify I used three coats and waited two hours between coats per the instructions. it was around 77-78° and very low humidity the whole time. The first two coats had some fairy small white splotchy streaks, that came right out after being gently wiped with a rag soaked with mineral spirits. It is the third coat that is a complete disaster.

-John
jdmm is offline  
post #3 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 10:09 AM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,160
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
What was your procedure?

If I were you I would call the manufacturer and explain the exact procedure you used, temp, humidty, time between coats, moisture content of the surface, and see what they recommend.

Secondly, mineral spirits will NOT dissolve lacquer, only an acetone or lacquer thinner will work to strip it off. I wouldn't do anything until the manufacturer gives their opinion. If you can, email them a better photo of the condition than you posted here, straight on, no reflected light or glare.


Your second post explained you used mineral spirits to wipe it down. That may be the issue, I donno, but typically it is not compatible with lacquer solvents since it is an oily petroleum based solvent and may have left a film?

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 06-06-2020 at 10:15 AM.
woodnthings is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 10:09 AM
Moderator
 
John Smith_inFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,410
View John Smith_inFL's Photo Album My Photos
oh wow - a blast from my past.
I first discovered Deft back in the late '70s and it was my
"go to" for furniture and plaques. I loved the stuff !!

I don't know what the modern version of its chemical makeup is.
but, I don't think mineral spirits is compatible with lacquer products.
I personally would follow the directions on the can and use whatever
product is suggest for thinning and cleanup.

you are using a Semi-Gloss finish. did you "stir" with a hefty stick
to break the sediment loose from the bottom ? I mean each little speck
must be incorporated in order to get your expected results.
using a paddle mixer in a drill motor would not do the same as a stick. (IMO).

a little more information on how you prepped the product itself would help.
not that it matters, but, did you use a grain filler and sealer before the Deft?

.

there is no educational alternative to having a front row seat in the School of Hard Knocks.

Last edited by John Smith_inFL; 06-06-2020 at 10:19 AM.
John Smith_inFL is online now  
post #5 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
Well sounds like mineral spirits might be my problem I will get some proper lacquer thinner. Egg on my face but this project has been a worthwhile learning experience so that is good. I just stirred the finish with a stick in the same way you would do a paint can I think I will have to invest in a mixer for my drill while at the hardware store. I did not use any type of sealer just some Minwax oil based stain. I’ve never used a sealer before but then again I’ve never worked red oak before. It’s pretty obvious I’m a novice and i’ve only used pine plywood and occasionally poplar. Is sealer a good idea for oak? Seemed kiln dried if it makes a difference. I will try to strip this all off and start over I think.

-John

Last edited by jdmm; 06-06-2020 at 11:05 AM. Reason: Spelling
jdmm is offline  
post #6 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
Also for prep work I sanded in stages 60-120-180-220 grit, then stained and let dry overnight before applying finish, nothing else.

-John
jdmm is offline  
post #7 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 11:14 AM
Moderator
 
John Smith_inFL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,410
View John Smith_inFL's Photo Album My Photos
John - when I first discovered Deft (actually, my wife bought it for me
at a hardware store - she overheard a customer raving on it).
at that time, I was using mahogany exclusively for 90% of my projects.
Brushing Lacquer is not intended to be thinned - use it right out of the can.
the material that makes any clear product satin, semi-gloss, flat, etc is like
a very finely ground glass or silica material that inhibits the glossy sheen
after it dries. clear gloss does not have any of this material added.
when the "modified" clear sits for awhile, the solid additive settles to the bottom.
a hefty stick with a flat bottom and square edges must be used to break this
sediment loose and get it mixed back into the body of the finish.
this additive is so fine that it can not be seen with the naked eye when it is
in a solution state.
my personal choice is to stay within the name brand of thinners and additives.
so after I became comfortable with Deft Brushing Lacquer, I used Deft
Sanding Sealer and lacquer thinner exclusively.
yes, there is a learning curve to all new and unfamiliar products.
reading, understanding and following the instructions on the can will shorten that curve.
check the instructions on the MinWax stain. . . (just to be sure that too is not a problem).

keep us in the loop - you'll get there (sooner or later).

.

there is no educational alternative to having a front row seat in the School of Hard Knocks.

Last edited by John Smith_inFL; 06-06-2020 at 11:17 AM.
John Smith_inFL is online now  
post #8 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 11:22 AM
Wood machinist
 
difalkner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NW Louisiana
Posts: 4,436
View difalkner's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmm View Post
Well sounds like mineral spirits might be my problem I will get some proper lacquer thinner.
I only had time to skim your first post but if you're planning to wipe the finish with lacquer thinner like you did the mineral spirits - don't! You'll melt your rag right into the previous finish. If you want to wipe it down between coats use Naphtha.

David

David

Curly Wood Shop on Etsy
David Falkner - Woodworking YouTube channel and Instagram
Our music at church - current videos Airline Baptist BC Facebook Live
Romans 3:23
difalkner is online now  
post #9 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
This is a lot of good info thanks! I will try to salvage this and hopefully have a good update to post.

John

-John
jdmm is offline  
post #10 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 01:01 PM
where's my table saw?
 
woodnthings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SE, Michigan
Posts: 27,160
View woodnthings's Photo Album My Photos
I have sprayed Deft brushing lacquer ......

This is because good old nitrocellulose spraying lacquer is almost extinct/banned. I had a difficult time find it so I used brushing lacquer. This guy explains how he does it by thinning it, a slightly different mix than I used:


This about lacquer "blushing", the condition you describe above:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 06-06-2020 at 01:07 PM.
woodnthings is online now  
post #11 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 01:07 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx.
Posts: 4,058
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
First off..Did you follow the directions on the can?

Did you thin the lacquer with the proper thinner as indicated on the can?

Did you apply the finish too thick? This is very important with what your finish is.

Also important, but nothing to do with your finish problem....did you stop at the recommended finish sanding grit or did you go up one?
Listen to the manufacturer, not a forum.

From the ambient conditions you gave us, humidity was not the problem.

I have a lot of experience spraying finishing products, mainly lacquer but not the brushing kind. OK, so sprayed lacquer is normally applied in very thin coats of approximately 3-5 mils wet. We know you brushed, so you must be thicker than that. Now here is why this is important..................Envision a glass of water sitting on top of a picture, then place a clear piece of glass over it and look through it. Now place a slightly cloudy piece of glass over it and look through it. then place another slightly cloudy piece of glass over that Each layer of cloudy glass takes something away from the picture as you look through the layers.
So, maybe you applied too thick a layer of semi gloss ( the first piece of cloudy glass). Then you added another layer of semi-gloss and further clouded up your view and then again with a 3rd layer of semi-gloss.

The proper way to finish is to ALWAYS start and build your coats with a clear finish - always. (Unless you are using a sealer or primer as a first coat). Then you final coat can be a semi-gloss or satin or whatever you want. By doing it this way, you are maintaining the clarity of the finish through the coats and only knocking the shine or glare off of the surface. By adding more and more layers of semi-gloss you are in effect changing your finish to a satin finish, and if you do enough coats, you will end up with a dead flat finish, just like adding all the layers of of slightly cloudy glass.
If you add enough coats of semi-gloss, you will be losing the clarity and subsequently losing the ability to see the wood grain at its best.
woodnthings and TimPa like this.

Tony B Retired woodworker, among other things.


"Strive for excellence and settle for completion" Tony B

Last edited by Tony B; 06-06-2020 at 01:15 PM.
Tony B is online now  
post #12 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 02:47 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 127
View Rick Christopherson's Photo Album My Photos
When I first saw your picture I "knew" what the problem was, and while that is still sorta true, the exact cause shifted when I later red about the mineral spirits. It's still related though. The picture is indicative of applying lacquer over stain that hasn't fully dried, but in this case, it is the mineral spirits doing the same thing.


The reason for my posting is to give you a possible option for repairing it without too much difficulty. That's because I have encountered the same thing many times due to wet stains.




Take a rag and fully wet it with lacquer, and then rub the existing finish thoroughly as though you were scrubbing/cleaning a floor or countertop. By that description, I mean "be aggressive". You want to apply enough fresh lacquer, and rub it into the surface to dissolve the previous layer at the same time. As you rub, you should see the blushing become clear. Then, before the lacquer dries, smooth it out as much as you can with the rag. After that, you can either apply another coat-then-sand or sand-then-coat, depending on your preference.

Oh, just to be clear, you do this with lacquer...NOT with lacquer thinner. It won't work the same because the lacquer thinner is only solvent and will dry too fast.
Rick Christopherson is offline  
post #13 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 03:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx.
Posts: 4,058
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
Oh well, I thought he used the mineral spirits to just clean up AFTER the problem arose.
I'm confused

Tony B Retired woodworker, among other things.


"Strive for excellence and settle for completion" Tony B
Tony B is online now  
post #14 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 04:57 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 47
View danrush's Photo Album My Photos
Mohawk no blush retarder can be handy for these issues. It softens the lacquer to allow moisture to escape thru the finish.
danrush is offline  
post #15 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 127
View Rick Christopherson's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by danrush View Post
Mohawk no blush retarder can be handy for these issues. It softens the lacquer to allow moisture to escape thru the finish.
No. Do not apply retarder to the surface of an applied finish. The ratio of retarder to lacquer would be too high and your finish will never get very hard. Retarder has its purpose, but don't use it as a thinner or cleaner.
Rick Christopherson is offline  
post #16 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 08:02 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 47
View danrush's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Christopherson View Post
No. Do not apply retarder to the surface of an applied finish. The ratio of retarder to lacquer would be too high and your finish will never get very hard. Retarder has its purpose, but don't use it as a thinner or cleaner.
I admit I don't know enough about it to disagree, Rick. ( I generally trust the advice you share on various forums.) But, Mohawk markets the no blush in an aerosol specifically for finish repair. Water marks, etc. What am I missing?
danrush is offline  
post #17 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 08:27 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 47
View danrush's Photo Album My Photos
Sorry for the crummy screen shot. This is the stuff I'm talking about...
danrush is offline  
post #18 of 29 Old 06-06-2020, 09:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx.
Posts: 4,058
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
Back when I was doing a lot of refinishing work, there were 2 distinct products for blush. One was a RETARDER and the other was a Blush Eliminator. The RETARDER was a liquid that was mixed in with the lacquer and the lacquer thinner before spraying. This slowed down the 'kick-in' time. It was not a linear across the board slow down. It would extend the 'kick-in' by only a few minutes. It was just long enough to prevent the moisture in the air from humidity being trapped in the finish before it kicked over. This only worked if the humidity was not over 85%, which on normal conditions over 80% was a bit too high. BTW, in Houston area and coastal areas, 85% Humidity is about normal in summer time.

Blush Eliminator was used for spot spraying over an area that had blush. it really had not much use in a new project where everything was sprayed all at once. It was normally used on older pieces that were scratched or spot sprayed and blushed. It was applied by spraying parallel to and slightly above the surface. The idea was that the mist slowly settled down on the surface and more or less, re-melted the surface.

I guess products have changed as manufacturers come and go.

Tony B Retired woodworker, among other things.


"Strive for excellence and settle for completion" Tony B

Last edited by Tony B; 06-06-2020 at 09:25 PM.
Tony B is online now  
post #19 of 29 Old 06-08-2020, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
I did try to follow the instructions carefully, did not thin because instructions said not to, and stopped sanding at 220 grit as the label indicated. The stain should of been completely dry. I think you all identified 2 critical errors I made.
1 Probably did put all 3 coats on a little thick, call that inexperience.
2 all I had was mineral spirits, so I used that to clean the brush between coats, which probably caused much more problems on coats 2 and 3. Call that ignorance!
Not going to make those mistake again.
I have to reread some suggestions on removing the flawed coats. Was cold and rainy last couple of days, but should be dry and 70+ today so I can work on it. I got a tin of Watco paint and poly remover that is supppsed to work on lacquer, but will maybe try some above methods first.
Also, I like the idea of a spray finish, but really want to learn one method before moving on.

John
John Smith_inFL likes this.

-John
jdmm is offline  
post #20 of 29 Old 06-08-2020, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Yreka, CA
Posts: 19
View jdmm's Photo Album My Photos
Rick had an interesting suggestion on trying to rub out flaws with more lacquer, couldn’t hurt as I would have to strip and sand anyways if it didn’t work. And Tony, had no idea semi-gloss was only for a final coat. Maybe I will just get a jar of glossy .
Either way think I am going to take some scrap leftover and prepare/stain the same way and practice application. I once read something like “test your project on scrap or risk scrapping your project.” I follow that advice when setting up cutting tools, wish I did for the finish coat!
John

-John

Last edited by jdmm; 06-08-2020 at 10:10 AM.
jdmm is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome