High humidity. - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 2Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
High humidity.

Am using retarded thinner k27 in with the nexus precat lacquer by Gemini. What ration should I cut with. Humidity is 92% doors coming out cloudy. Been just guessing but I think I'm using too much of the k27 doors are way soft

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 10:37 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,991
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
At 92% forget it, retarder won't save you. Retarder thinner is only good from about 68% to 75% humidity. You'll either have to wait until dry weather or get a dehumidifier. One note though, don't run the dehumidifier while you are working lacquer, the fumes will cause an explosion. Just get the humidity down and work without ventilation until the humidity goes up to where you have to stop.
wretched64 likes this.
Steve Neul is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Steve Neul For This Useful Post:
wretched64 (06-24-2019)
post #3 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
At 92% forget it, retarder won't save you. Retarder thinner is only good from about 68% to 75% humidity. You'll either have to wait until dry weather or get a dehumidifier. One note though, don't run the dehumidifier while you are working lacquer, the fumes will cause an explosion. Just get the humidity down and work without ventilation until the humidity goes up to where you have to stop.
That sucks. They made me stop Thursday with one coat left to do they Chevron pattern and now its humidity and has to go out tomorrow

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 11:03 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,991
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched64 View Post
That sucks. They made me stop Thursday with one coat left to do they Chevron pattern and now its humidity and has to go out tomorrow

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
That just goes with finishing. At 92% even polyurethane would blush. The faster the drying time of the finish more problems you have with finishing and weather. The white is literally water trapped in the finish. Retarder thinner slows the drying time down in order to let the water escape before it skims over. At 92% though you could apply a varnish with a brush and it would still get water in it.

If you can't bring down the humidity the only thing you can do is tell the customer the weather won't permit the finishing.

From where you are with the finish already blushed you have to be careful to get rid of it with the next coat. If you don't melt out the water that is already there and put another coat on it's likely going to have to be stripped. I sometimes will spray a mixture of lacquer thinner and retarder thinner on the finish when the humidity is down and try to melt as much of the blush off as I can before putting another coat on.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #5 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
That just goes with finishing. At 92% even polyurethane would blush. The faster the drying time of the finish more problems you have with finishing and weather. The white is literally water trapped in the finish. Retarder thinner slows the drying time down in order to let the water escape before it skims over. At 92% though you could apply a varnish with a brush and it would still get water in it.



If you can't bring down the humidity the only thing you can do is tell the customer the weather won't permit the finishing.



From where you are with the finish already blushed you have to be careful to get rid of it with the next coat. If you don't melt out the water that is already there and put another coat on it's likely going to have to be stripped. I sometimes will spray a mixture of lacquer thinner and retarder thinner on the finish when the humidity is down and try to melt as much of the blush off as I can before putting another coat on.
Yeah I was trying that. Helped alot.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 11:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,991
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched64 View Post
Yeah I was trying that. Helped alot.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
If you have conditions where the humidity is down and you have a finish with a little blush you can spray another coat on with retarder thinner and it will finish melting it away and let the water out. If it's severe you may have to treat it several times with the lacquer thinner first.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #7 of 24 Old 06-24-2019, 01:41 PM
johnep
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Anglia UK
Posts: 1,897
View johnep's Photo Album My Photos
Humidity bad here in UK at present. I will have a portable aircon delivered end of this week.
johnep
johnep is offline  
post #8 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
I have never used retarder thinner I have always added retarder to my lacquer as recommended. Even at that, 85% Humidity is my very max I would do. When you approach 85%, make a few sample sprays and check out the results. if the piece blushes, you will have to strip and re-do There is no cure for blush. It's all in the prevention.
BTW, what are you making and what type of finish are you using?

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
post #9 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
I have never used retarder thinner I have always added retarder to my lacquer as recommended. Even at that, 85% Humidity is my very max I would do. When you approach 85%, make a few sample sprays and check out the results. if the piece blushes, you will have to strip and re-do There is no cure for blush. It's all in the prevention.

BTW, what are you making and what type of finish are you using?
Face frame and doors and some trim. Finish is all Gemini. Sealer and lacquer satin

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #10 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:15 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
Great, I only used lacquer. But unfortunately you will have to wait for humidity to go down. my last shop was just south of Houston, Tx and humidity was always a problem. Not so much in winter because I could always heat the shop to drop the humidity.
Gemini is a good product but it has its limitation like other lacquers. If you already sprayed and have blush, your only solution is to strip it. If pre-cat lacquer finish is fairly fresh, like a day old or so, it should strip relatively easily with lacquer thinner. If you used nitrocellulous lacquer it will very easily strip off with lacquer thinner.

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to Tony B For This Useful Post:
wretched64 (06-25-2019)
post #11 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
Great, I only used lacquer. But unfortunately you will have to wait for humidity to go down. my last shop was just south of Houston, Tx and humidity was always a problem. Not so much in winter because I could always heat the shop to drop the humidity.

Gemini is a good product but it has its limitation like other lacquers. If you already sprayed and have blush, your only solution is to strip it. If pre-cat lacquer finish is fairly fresh, like a day old or so, it should strip relatively easily with lacquer thinner. If you used nitrocellulous lacquer it will very easily strip off with lacquer thinner.
I did add 2 oz. Of the retarded thinner to the lacquer and a dabble of thinner to that to help eat into old spray yesterday. Turned out good surprisingly. Not best pic and that's dust. We dont have a designated spray area.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #12 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:34 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
A side note on satin finish

When I first started woodworking for a living, I took several finishing classes. One from Star Chemical Company and the other from Mohawk - the manufacturers of the chemicals. and here is what I learned..............
If you want a satin finish, make your first 2 coats using a high gloss finish and use the satin finish as your final coat.
That way, when you look at the finished piece you will be looking at the top coat that contains the stearates or whetever they use now-a-days to knock of the gloss and then you will be looking at a clear shot to the grain. If you build all of your coats with satin you will get more of a lifeless dead look. The stearates are there to difuse the light.

I always bought just High Gloss and then bought a jar of 'flattener'. The instructions on the flattener will tell you how much to mix to a gallon of lacquer to get the desired effect - anywhere from a semi-gloss on down to a dead flat finish. All this is only on the top coat.

Also note that a dead flat finish looks and feels like an oil finish while giving you the protection of a pre-cat lacquer.

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
post #13 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 09:42 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
The panels look good but I will caution you against voo-doo finishing. You wont always get lucky.

What are you using for your spray rig?

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
post #14 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
The panels look good but I will caution you against voo-doo finishing. You wont always get lucky.



What are you using for your spray rig?
Hvlp. I can only use what company buys and only do what they say lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #15 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 11:00 AM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
I was hoping you would be using an HVLP rig. Its a little different than conventional sprayers in that it may take some getting used to.
It should take no more than a few hours practice before you figure out what best in the way of thinning.
I had an Earlex HVLP sprayer. It was around $350, not the best around but more than good enough for the job. I'm glad I bought the optional tip to allow for a thicker spray so I didnt have to thin too much.
The finish was excellent and the efficiency was excellent. Not only do you have much much less waste as far as $$ are concerned but you can work in relatively small areas without fogging up the place. Dont know how much lacquer spraying you have under your belt, but for the benefit of others on here, lacquer over-spray turns to dust before it hits the floor. You can simply just blow the dust off your shoes.

BTW, what part of the country are you located in? Just wondering if high humidity is just a way of life like it is on the Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi coast.

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
post #16 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony B View Post
I was hoping you would be using an HVLP rig. Its a little different than conventional sprayers in that it may take some getting used to.

It should take no more than a few hours practice before you figure out what best in the way of thinning.

I had an Earlex HVLP sprayer. It was around $350, not the best around but more than good enough for the job. I'm glad I bought the optional tip to allow for a thicker spray so I didnt have to thin too much.

The finish was excellent and the efficiency was excellent. Not only do you have much much less waste as far as $$ are concerned but you can work in relatively small areas without fogging up the place. Dont know how much lacquer spraying you have under your belt, but for the benefit of others on here, lacquer over-spray turns to dust before it hits the floor. You can simply just blow the dust off your shoes.



BTW, what part of the country are you located in? Just wondering if high humidity is just a way of life like it is on the Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi coast.
This gun and touch up was 120 I think. I am using the 1.8 tip. Someone bent the 1.3 and I'm in Cherokee county ga

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,991
View Steve Neul's Photo Album My Photos
The flattening agent is a fine gypsum material similar to baby powder. If a person had to they could put baby powder in lacquer to flatten the sheen. I'm sure there is other ingredients in the flattening agent and in the baby powder which wouldn't make it an ideal substitute but it will work.

I started off my business with binks and sharp sprayers and I kept having employees breaking them. The solution for me was to just buy cheap guns and throw them away when there was a problem. Then along came harbor freight so I tried their guns and was stunned how close they came to performing like the expensive guns so that is all I use. Now I have had some issues with metallic automotive base coats with the hf guns but wood finishes work just fine.

One other note on using retarder thinners. They slow the drying time down and they also slow the curing time down as well. If you use a lot of retarder thinner in a finish handle that item more gently for a couple of months to give it time to harden. Otherwise you will find the finish scratches a lot easier.
Tony B likes this.
Steve Neul is offline  
post #18 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 90
View wretched64's Photo Album My Photos
Thanks everyone. I started learning maybe 10 years ago and haven't done tons of spraying. The ones I learned from never had any formal training. I did take a short class through highland woodworking. Forget guy who taught it he insisted on staining after sealing. Never tried it but want to. I do take you guys advice and when I do things for myself on side I apply them.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
wretched64 is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 12:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
............
One other note on using retarder thinners. They slow the drying time down and they also slow the curing time down as well. If you use a lot of retarder thinner in a finish handle that item more gently for a couple of months to give it time to harden. Otherwise you will find the finish scratches a lot easier.
Exactly. Just plain retarder added to the lacquer in the proper amount only delays the set-up/drying process by very little maybe a few minutes longer, at least from my experience.
Usually when I first open the can of lacquer, i automatically add the retarder and fish-eye remover. That way, when I'm ready to spray, I just add thinner.

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
post #20 of 24 Old 06-25-2019, 12:23 PM
Senior Member
 
Tony B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dickinson, Tx. / Somerville, TX
Posts: 3,439
View Tony B's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by wretched64 View Post
........... I did take a short class through highland woodworking. .......guy who taught it insisted on staining after sealing. ............
That's odd. I would think that the stain wouldnt stick to the sealer. In affect, a sealer is a finish coat of sorts. Is it possible that he meant using a paste wood grain filler after the sealer?

If you apply a sealer coat, then lightly sand, the stain will only be absorbed on the surface. In the pores, it would be sitting on the sealer because it wasn't sanded off. Maybe he assumed that the residual stain in the pores would be completely absorbed by the first coat of lacquer. That would result in poor adhesion and the pores likely would be lighter in color that the surface. Normally, this is not the desired affect. In most cases, your eye/brain likes the the darker pores better.
Maybe the Highland guy never took a finishing products manufacturing course.

Tony B



Retired woodworker, amongst other things, Sold full time cruising boat and now full time cruising in RV. Currently in Somerville, Tx
Tony B is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome