220 Belt Sanding - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 04-01-2019, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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220 Belt Sanding

I am working on a project that requires finish sanding of multiple multiple small parts. To help in this I am trying to find a belt sander that I can use to speed up the job and save my arms. In looking at belt sanders my fear is that even the slowest ones at ~1800 fpm are still to fast. In calculating a 'hand sand' fpm I am coming up with ~200 fpm. So I am entertaining custom building a sander that I can reduce down with pulleys to ~200 fpm.

Does anyone have experience or advice on finish sanding with a belt sander.
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post #2 of 25 Old 04-01-2019, 06:24 PM
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Dont sweat the speed. With a sharp belt, burning with a 220 grit belt is a non-issue, but note that with a sharp belt. If you try to press an old belt into service, itll burn. You do run the issue of sanding with too heavy of a hand, but a slower sander wont prevent that either. Light touch and dont force things and youll be fine.

I regularly use a 2x72 belt grinder on wood, and this is a machine thats meant for hogging off steel, with belt speeds of about 4000sfpm. Toss a 60 grit belt on that thing and itll turn a 2x4 to dust before you can even blink, but with a sharp 220 belt on it, and a light touch, it does a good job finishing pieces. More speed means mistakes happen faster, yes, but for my money 1800sfpm is still on the low side of machine sanding, and as long as you pay attention youll be fine

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post #3 of 25 Old 04-01-2019, 06:33 PM
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Agree. It is not the speed that is the major factor, it is the best quality.


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post #4 of 25 Old 04-01-2019, 10:09 PM
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You really don't want a sanding belt that fine. A belt sander is more for rough sanding wood to remove defects and planer marks. Regardless of the talent of the operator a belt sander makes dents in the wood. Of course the better a person is with the belt sander the fewer dents you make but everybody does it. The finish sanding should be done with an orbital sander which will sand the surface flat.
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post #5 of 25 Old 04-02-2019, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys!

I tried an orbital sander multiple times and it left my hands numb after, so I went back to hand sanding. While hand sanding, I got the thought why can't I do this exact thing with a belt and move the paper instead of the part.

I am going to buy 5 220 belts and try the light touch.

Follow up, what are the thoughts on water treatment to bring out the grain? Required if finishing with only mineral oil?

I uploaded some of the parts I am finishing, any advice is greatly appreciated.

My wife absolutely loves that I am using her cooling racks :)
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post #6 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmonticchio View Post
I am working on a project that requires finish sanding of multiple multiple small parts. To help in this I am trying to find a belt sander that I can use to speed up the job and save my arms. In looking at belt sanders my fear is that even the slowest ones at ~1800 fpm are still to fast. In calculating a 'hand sand' fpm I am coming up with ~200 fpm. So I am entertaining custom building a sander that I can reduce down with pulleys to ~200 fpm.

Does anyone have experience or advice on finish sanding with a belt sander.
This suggestion is not going to help you with this project, but it may help you with future projects. I usually try to sand my boards before cutting them into small parts. I still have to do some finish sanding after the parts are cut, but there is much less sanding at the end of the project.

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post #7 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by epicfail48 View Post
Dont sweat the speed. With a sharp belt, burning with a 220 grit belt is a non-issue, but note that with a sharp belt. If you try to press an old belt into service, itll burn. You do run the issue of sanding with too heavy of a hand, but a slower sander wont prevent that either. Light touch and dont force things and youll be fine.

I regularly use a 2x72 belt grinder on wood, and this is a machine thats meant for hogging off steel, with belt speeds of about 4000sfpm. Toss a 60 grit belt on that thing and itll turn a 2x4 to dust before you can even blink, but with a sharp 220 belt on it, and a light touch, it does a good job finishing pieces. More speed means mistakes happen faster, yes, but for my money 1800sfpm is still on the low side of machine sanding, and as long as you pay attention youll be fine
Like he said but I bought a small porter cable beltsander and I practice using it on some scrap wood. It still have some weight to it compared to full size hand held belt sanders and I find that just controlling it and letting the belt sander own weight do the job and I never had any problems especially with sharp 220 grit.

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post #8 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cmonticchio View Post
I tried an orbital sander multiple times and it left my hands numb after, so I went back to hand sanding. While hand sanding,
This is how I do my fine sanding. Orbital sanders are brutal on hands/arms.
I use 120/220/400 on this. Works very well for small parts.

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post #9 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cmonticchio View Post
Follow up, what are the thoughts on water treatment to bring out the grain? Required if finishing with only mineral oil?
I'm personally not a fan of "mineral oil" anything...but that point is moot...

I am a huge fan of..."wet sanding"...in many forms.

Either with a thinned version of my traditional finishing oil in a atomizing spray bottle...or...(at minimum) that same bottle filled with alcohol...

It cleans the wood as well as leaving a more satin effect on the wood which also tends to "fuzz" less when a final finish is applied.

I would also offer, that instead of a Belt Sander that you try a "Finishing Sheet Sander" perhaps?

These are meant for "finer work" getting into corners and...going with the grain. They do not (or tend not to if use properly?) leave sanding marks...

A point on Grit:

This topic...like how to sharpen something...LOL......is often debated...So take this and use it or don't...

Sanding is nothing more than "planning wood" with thousands of little plane blades. However, that is not how it is looked at or treated in "modern woodworking."

"Sanding" (or Polishing) wood has been around longer than the hand plan actually has been. Yet, most books and related text do not look much beyond the European traditions of the craft.

Nevertheless, finishing methods like "French Polish" and related methods around the glob's woodworking cultures have all relied on "sanding methods" for millenia. Volcanic and sand pumice, Ray-Shark Skin, Horse Tail Reed, and many other natural sanding and polishing agents all lend themselves to really understanding how..."sanding"...evolved.

As such...I would go with a lot finer sand paper than 220 alone if you wish for a really smooth finish...or!!!...Use a very sharp plane and be done with it. If I do use a good hand plane I would never touch the wood after unless in the 1000 grit range.

Even on bare "green" wood you can raise a polish with proper sanding modalities that will let you see your reflection in the wood once the means and method of sanding are understood and practiced. You can then choose just how smooth you wish to make something...Food for thought?

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Originally Posted by cmonticchio View Post
I uploaded some of the parts I am finishing, any advice is greatly appreciated....My wife absolutely loves that I am using her cooling racks :)
I agree fully with other posters on this one...Do as much of your sanding (or planing?) as possible before assembly of a project...Then, your only doing very fine finish sanding...

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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
You really don't want a sanding belt that fine... Of course the better a person is with the belt sander the fewer dents you make but everybody does it. The finish sanding should be done with an orbital sander which will sand the surface flat.
Sorry...that simply is not the experience of anyone I know of in woodworking that routinely uses belt sanders...???...That seems like a "bad tool" or some other challenge taking place?

I have used belt sanders for decades (as do most of my colleagues) and have never had any issues with "dents.". If that is taking place, then the tool is being pushed past its limitations and/or used incorrectly...or...that is a badly designed belt sander?

As to grit...???...I (et al) often go well beyond grits as fine as 220..??? They would not make belts in the 1000 grit range (and finer) if there wasn't professionals using the product...

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post #10 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
I'm personally not a fan of "mineral oil" anything...but that point is moot...

I am a huge fan of..."wet sanding"...in many forms.

Either with a thinned version of my traditional finishing oil in a atomizing spray bottle...or...(at minimum) that same bottle filled with alcohol...

It cleans the wood as well as leaving a more satin effect on the wood which also tends to "fuzz" less when a final finish is applied.

I would also offer, that instead of a Belt Sander that you try a "Finishing Sheet Sander" perhaps?

These are meant for "finer work" getting into corners and...going with the grain. They do not (or tend not to if use properly?) leave sanding marks...

A point on Grit:

This topic...like how to sharpen something...LOL......is often debated...So take this and use it or don't...

Sanding is nothing more than "planning wood" with thousands of little plane blades. However, that is not how it is looked at or treated in "modern woodworking."

"Sanding" (or Polishing) wood has been around longer than the hand plan actually has been. Yet, most books and related text do not look much beyond the European traditions of the craft.

Nevertheless, finishing methods like "French Polish" and related methods around the glob's woodworking cultures have all relied on "sanding methods" for millenia. Volcanic and sand pumice, Ray-Shark Skin, Horse Tail Reed, and many other natural sanding and polishing agents all lend themselves to really understanding how..."sanding"...evolved.

As such...I would go with a lot finer sand paper than 220 alone if you wish for a really smooth finish...or!!!...Use a very sharp plane and be done with it. If I do use a good hand plane I would never touch the wood after unless in the 1000 grit range.

Even on bare "green" wood you can raise a polish with proper sanding modalities that will let you see your reflection in the wood once the means and method of sanding are understood and practiced. You can then choose just how smooth you wish to make something...Food for thought?



I agree fully with other posters on this one...Do as much of your sanding (or planing?) as possible before assembly of a project...Then, your only doing very fine finish sanding...



Sorry...that simply is not the experience of anyone I know of in woodworking that routinely uses belt sanders...???...That seems like a "bad tool" or some other challenge taking place?

I have used belt sanders for decades (as do most of my colleagues) and have never had any issues with "dents.". If that is taking place, then the tool is being pushed past its limitations and/or used incorrectly...or...that is a badly designed belt sander?

As to grit...???...I (et al) often go well beyond grits as fine as 220..??? They would not make belts in the 1000 grit range (and finer) if there wasn't professionals using the product...
Maybe not your experience but is the experience of every single person I know that uses a belt sander. Perhaps dent isn't a good description but it is a depression ground by the corner of the belt sander if you let it tip slightly. It's so shallow you can't see it when you do it or even when you stain it. It only shows up after putting a few coats of a film finish over the top. Perhaps since you finish with an oil finish you just have never seen it.
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post #11 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 11:27 AM
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.... Perhaps since you finish with an oil finish you just have never seen it.
No...I see it...and very often with novice using belt sanders improperly...too aggressively...out of context...or just not a good tool...

As to your experience...???...that is strange compared to the decades I've been doing this and what is simply found on the web within the tools professional applications, grit offerings and the general application of the tool...It is the "go to" tool for many professionals when using power sanding by hand...I personally have switched mostly to the "Rotex" system of orbit and grind pattern for the "meat and potatoes" work of sanding...

I imagine (???) we agree fully thought that for this OP...and any "finish sanding" either of us does...that a "belt sander" is not the tool either of us would reach for...LOL... ...

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post #12 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay C. White Cloud View Post
No...I see it...and very often with novice using belt sanders improperly...too aggressively...out of context...or just not a good tool...

As to your experience...???...that is strange compared to the decades I've been doing this and what is simply found on the web within the tools professional applications, grit offerings and the general application of the tool...It is the "go to" tool for many professionals when using power sanding by hand...I personally have switched mostly to the "Rotex" system of orbit and grind pattern for the "meat and potatoes" work of sanding...

I imagine (???) we agree fully thought that for this OP...and any "finish sanding" either of us does...that a "belt sander" is not the tool either of us would reach for...LOL... ...
It's not just the novice, I started in woodworking when I was 18 and now I'm 64 and still occasionally make a mark in the wood with a belt sander. My solution was to purchase a stroke sander.
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post #13 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 12:07 PM
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It's not just the novice...
I am a professional woodworker Steve, with a pretty rich and diverse background in it, and our similar ages and decades in the craft are very differently reflected. I would further offer (again) a public record to illustrate my experience...as are those of the thousands of collegues I have globally that would also hold a different view of the proper use and results of this tool...I only share that so the OP understand their is nothing wrong at all for trying to do what they are thinking about...

Belt Sanders when used properly...do not leave blemishes...as you have suggested... unless they are used improperly, and/or not a very good version of the tool ...That is not opinion or guessing...its a reflected fact of the industry that makes these tools and the tool itself as manufactured and used effectively by thousand in the craft...

Your point is made...we disagree on it...
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post #14 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 04:51 PM
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There are belt sanders that offer a 1 inch belt (maybe 1.5). I think that I bought mine at Harbor Freight for $32 with a 20% off coupon. The belt seems to run slower than either my ancient Craftsman hand held or my Porter Cable hand held.

Like most HF tools, its one job was to round the corners of tenons. A 'Four in Hand' or rasp does a better and quicker job. I would rate it at a MEH.

When looking at your project, I would do the sanding with a block by hand.

And as Jay said, I'm not a fan of a mineral oil finish either as it doesn't cure. If you have an aversions to Minwax Antique Oil Finish or Watco, I would suggest walnut salad oil as it does cure eventually and is food safe. You can find it in the salad oil section of the grocery store or at some woodworking stores.

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post #15 of 25 Old 04-13-2019, 09:15 PM
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Belt sanding/ers

I use to have the dip issue UNTIL I started buying good quality belts....NOT ALL belts are joined the same and some cause a bump/divet every round it makes as the joint goes around/between the sander pad/base and the wood.

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post #16 of 25 Old 04-15-2019, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you guys, I finally picked up my father in laws bench top belt sander over the weekend and have 220 belts and very fine surface conditioning belts on the way.

I like the note about sanding as much as possible before parting off, my hope with the conditioning belt is to hit the router edges quickly and move on.

As for the mineral oil finish, I need something food safe and is not tacky while drying or curing.
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post #18 of 25 Old 04-15-2019, 06:49 PM
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...Thank you guys, I finally picked up my father in laws bench top belt sander over the weekend and have 220 belts and very fine surface conditioning belts on the way.
Hi cmonticchio,

You are most welcome...

I hope the bench version works well for your needs!

Before I forget, as I did way back in the beginning of your post thread, don't forget (if you don't know all ready) to purchase a Sanding Eraser Block. It will save you all kinds of frustrations and keep you sanding in a consistent fashion...

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... like the note about sanding as much as possible before parting off, my hope with the conditioning belt is to hit the router edges quickly and move on.
Sanding before assembly is usually (almost always?) a better option.

You may also try keeping a atomizing spray bottle close by with Alcohol in it to keep dust down and try a bit of "wet sanding." It not only helps keep dust down, but also tends to clean the wood while sanding and leaves a more satiny smooth finish on the wood that fuzzes less when the first coat of finish begins to dry.

I will also, quite often, if at the 120 grit or less level spray the wood down lightly with the finish and sand it in. It keeps dust down as well as creating a smoother final finish. This is a really light coat, even a finished damp rage can work for this. Combining the two (alcohol-finish) also has good effect as well...See what works best for you?

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...As for the mineral oil finish, I need something food safe and is not tacky while drying or curing...
Traditional oil finishes, in general, I would not describe as ever really being "tacky" in nature while drying/curing. Its one of the many charms of working with traditional modalities of work...

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This specific brand of Flax Oil...(aka Linseed )...No, I have not...

However, linseed, tung, citrus, walnut, coconut, and several other natural oils are used often.

Linseed is a faster drying natural oil (warning: it will start fires easily..and I have seen over 5 friends/collegues at this point in my career have their shops burn to the ground because of it...)

For your application, I will offer you my "go to" day to day oil blend I use. I have used it for 30 plus years, and the formulation is over 2000 plus years old in service application. I typically use so much of it that it purchase by the 50 gallon barrel!!! It's a blend of Flax, Tung, Citrus Oil blended with Beeswax and Pine Rosin.

Heritage Finish

Note: even with it being inside I recommend the exterior grade. The mineral based UV stabilizer mitigates a finished piece from getting sun bleach if it gets too much through a window.

You can also purchase just pure oils from Autumn (owner of the company and a dear friend) of which all (??) are food grade pure and not adulterated...

Another great company I deal with for pure oils and related waxes and pigmented finishes is The Real Milk Paint Company. Dwayne and his team of people are some of the best in the world at traditional finishes and I have know and worked with the company since they started 1995. Its a family "fun" and owned company that really is helpful should you have questions...

Let me know if I can expand on anything?

j

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post #19 of 25 Old 04-16-2019, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
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Jay,

I will get a belt cleaning block ASAP. The YouTube videos of the block working on a dirty belt is pretty satisfying.

Do you suggest a water treatment to bring out the grain then sand it off, water again, sand, water, sand... until the grain no longer raises with water contact. Would alcohol have the same effect?

Is Linseed/Flax the only oil that spontaneously combusts? I assume I would need to be cautious of Heritage with combustion. What do you worry about, the wet rags in a ball? I was thinking of getting a small steel can and setting up a rack to hang rags when finished...

All of your help is greatly appreciated!

Chris
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Jay,

I will get a belt cleaning block ASAP. The YouTube videos of the block working on a dirty belt is pretty satisfying.

Do you suggest a water treatment to bring out the grain then sand it off, water again, sand, water, sand... until the grain no longer raises with water contact. Would alcohol have the same effect?

Is Linseed/Flax the only oil that spontaneously combusts? I assume I would need to be cautious of Heritage with combustion. What do you worry about, the wet rags in a ball? I was thinking of getting a small steel can and setting up a rack to hang rags when finished...

All of your help is greatly appreciated!

Chris



One thing to be aware of, just because the belt will look like new doesn't mean it will cut like new, they still wear out but the block gives you more life out fo the belt

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