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post #1 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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Sharpening, Again

I'm specifically talking about BOWL Gouges. I did a search on "Sharpening Jigs" and am still wading through the mass of information. I know this subject has been covered extensively over the years, but as I read, a question appears to be unanswered (to me).
There appears to be two styles of jigs out there. I'll loosely term them the "Wolverine" and the "Ellsworth" jigs. Maybe better examples or more proper choice of name.
With the Wolverine style, the tool handle rest in an adjustable V block and the angle of the bevel is just eye balled to match the grinding surface.
With the Ellsworth style, the tool is clamped in a block with 2" protruding out the front. A metal rod attached to the block at a certain angle rests in the V block.
The question is: can anyone tell me the difference in the grind that each style will provide and any advantages of one over the other?
Thanks

P.S. Maybe the answer is out there and I just haven't read far enough: for that I apologize.
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post #2 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 02:04 PM
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If by "Wolverine" you mean THIS jig, it does not produce a "fingernail" grind, it's basically a straight-across bevel.

Add the Wolverine Vari-grind jig to it, and you'll get the fingernail grind which is probably very similar to what you'd get from the Ellsworth jig.

edit ... My first bowl gouge arrived with a straight-across grind and I had nothing but catches with it; when I took a bowl turning class, the first thing the teacher did was regrind it for me with a fingernail grind and the catch-per-bowl rate dropped to maybe one or two per bowl.

edit 2 ... btw, it's not that hard to make your own version of these jigs

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post #3 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, that 's what I'm talking about. From what you're saying, each has their place. The second one producing a finger nail grind instead of the usual grind. Thanks

For those of you with dual wheel wet/dry grinders, do you have your jigs on the dry (fast speed, coarse) wheel side or the wet (slow speed, fine) side? I've seen sharpening done on the coarse wheels and the Fine wheels seem to maybe provide too sharp of an edge? But I know they are wet wheels for a purpose, to keep the tool from getting too hot.
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post #4 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 02:27 PM
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I've not seen a grinder that is both wet and dry. My grinder is a slow speed grinder (1725 rpm versus 3450 of "high" speed grinder). I use Norton 3X wheels from Craft Supplies USA on mine, 46 grit and 80 grit. I grind my gouges on the finer grit and my scrapers on the coarser grit. I use the wolverine vari-grind jig and love the simplicity of this. I also cheat and use the Raptor set up guages
(http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/st...___raptor?Args=) to make set up even easier. For a newer turner I think these are invaluable as they allow you to very consistently repeat the same angle which is key to helping you develop the muscle memory it takes to make consistent cuts.

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #5 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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I have the Delta model 23-700 Wet/Dry grinder. It has a 5" dia. x 3/4"? 3450 rpm coarse (dry) wheel and a 10" dia. x 2" 70 rpm Fine (white, wet) wheel. I bought it years ago when I thought I knew what I needed. I haven't used it much until I got into turning. Which wheel would you use for BOWL gouges?

I didn't mean for this to become a regurgitation of the past; I did try to do the leg work on my own. But now you've confused (easily done) me. The vari-grind jig is the type that produces a finger nail grind right? If so, why did you choose this style of grind, when most of the turning tools come with the standard (50 degrees?) grind?
Thanks for putting up with me.
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post #6 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 04:41 PM
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For all practical purposes the Oneway Varigrind jig and the Ellsworth jig give you the same grind. Not exactly of course but close enough. You can extend the gouge out the front any number of inches but you need to standardize so it's always the same. most people use 1 3/4" or 2" of extension.
The Oneway jig accepts lots of different sizes. The Ellsworth jig is set up for a 5/8" gouge I believe.
You grinder should work. Course grinds remove more metal and leave a more saw tooth edge. Used properly it gives a decent cut. The wet wheel will give a finer edge but it will take longer to get the edge and the metal may groove the wheel making it less than desirable for sharpening things like plane irons.
Ideally you should get a white wheel to replace the gray one. It will cut cleaner and cooler. Get something between 80 and 120 grit. That's what most turners use.
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post #7 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 05:21 PM
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I have the basic Wolverine system plus Vari, skew grind jigs, and diamond dresser. The skew jig and diamond dresser jigs useless. I do use the bar from the diamond dresser for free hand sharpening of my skews and parting tools. Will also use the platform too, really depends upon what pick-up first.


Wile can freehand sharpen still use the v-arm and Vari grind jig for bowl and spindle gouges 99% of the time. No problem putting on a finger nail or side grind on gouges repeatedly. Only use the V-arm for roughing gouges. Not sure will buy the Vari grind 2 jig, do not have any ¾” bowl gouges.

Instructions have changed since bought my system, no problem easy learning curve. Bought my Wolverine system back in 1994. Added the skew jig later really disappointed with results.

I still believe this is best sharpening system for your turning tools. Only advice could offer if interested is shop around for best price to include shipping.
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post #8 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks all. It turns out my smaller (Fast, Dry) wheel is a white wheel, so I won't need to replace it. Since my gouge is the standard grind I think I'll make a jig for it similar to this:

http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f6/go...ing-jig-18685/

I'll just eyeball the starting angle; hopefully I haven't ground away too much of the original angle so I'll have something to go by.
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post #9 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 06:27 PM
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That'll work perfectly for a straight-across roughing gouge.

I chose to make mine using a length of t-track and and small v-piece for the gouge handle to sit in.

The track slides onto a couple of t-bolts pushed through from beneath the table with screw-fasteners on top. It saved me having to cut slots in a piece of wood, and it is 100% adjustable (I would have cut the slots too short the first three or four times )

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post #10 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duncsuss View Post
That'll work perfectly for a straight-across roughing gouge.
You say "straight across". Do you mean like a SPINDLE Roughing Gouge? I thought this type of jig was tailored toward sharpening BOWL Gouges? Here's the specific one I have:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/st..._art_bowl?Args=

Can it be sharpened on such a jig, or do I also need to fabricate a Vari-grind style jig also?
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post #11 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djg View Post
Can it be sharpened on such a jig, or do I also need to fabricate a Vari-grind style jig also?
I dunno, looks to me like the wings are swept back into a fingernail grind.

I think that requires the vari-grind (or something similar) jig to allow the heel of the handle to move in an arc from one side of the wheel to the other.

Based on stuff I found online, I made one from a 2" cube of maple and a dowel. I got the angles wrong on that, so I made another from a sheet of 16 gauge steel (again, plans off the web). I can track down the URLs for you, it'll just take me a while to get oriented.

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post #12 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 07:39 PM
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Hi,
Here is a link to a site showing a shop made jig for fingernail grinds on a bowl or spindle gouge. Works with the same principle as the ones you buy.
http://aroundthewoods.com/sharp.shtml
Hope it helps.
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post #13 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCPaladin View Post
Hi,
Here is a link to a site showing a shop made jig for fingernail grinds on a bowl or spindle gouge. Works with the same principle as the ones you buy.
http://aroundthewoods.com/sharp.shtml
Hope it helps.
Yes -- that's the wooden one I was talking about, I goofed when I drilled the hole for the dowel so it creates a lob-sided grind, but otherwise it's good.

I'll look for the metal-work one and post a link when I find it.

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post #14 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
If so, why did you choose this style of grind, when most of the turning tools come with the standard (50 degrees?) grind?
The fingernail grind refers to the shape of the bevel/tip of the tool, not the angle. You can grind a fingernail profile to any angle you want (same for a standard grind). 50 degrees is a good general duty grind. Some people like a steeper grind for the bottom of bowls, especially as they get deeper.

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #15 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I'm dense, but I'm still confused. The Wolverine V block style jig is only good for Spindle gouges and the Var-grind style jigs are only for bowl gouges?
Here's what I currently have. The top in the photo is the 1/2" Artisan Bowl gouge; most of the original grind is still in tack. I've only been mostly using the slow (fine) wet wheel for sharpening. The bottom one in the photo is the Ellsworth gouge (5/8") from Woodcraft Supply. I put the cart before the horse on this one when I bought it.
So the question is: will the Wolverine style jig work on the 1/2" gouge or will I need the Vari-grind style? The 5/8" Ellsworth is a no-brainer (I do have a brain, albeit smaller than most); I need the latter type.
Thanks
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post #16 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 08:51 PM
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I use the varigrind jig for all my gouges, spindle or bowl. I'm not 100% certain, but I think if you start with a standard grind, the varigrind will let you mimic this as well. I like the repeatability of the varigrind, getting a consistent shape every single time I sharpen. I also don't trust myself enough freehand (or even just using the wolverine arm) to make the sharpening consistently. I'll take some pics later and post them for you.

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #17 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djg View Post
So the question is: will the Wolverine style jig work on the 1/2" gouge or will I need the Vari-grind style?
I believe you need the vari-grind style jig for both those bowl gouges.

Here's the link to the metal jig I promised - it's by Stan Harder.

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post #18 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 09:50 PM
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dj, here are some pics of different grind/angles. If you click on the titles the pics will open. 45 degree shows a regular grind on top, fingernail on bottom, both 45 degrees. Top is 3/8 bottom is 1/2 inch. 2nd pic is both 3/8. 3rd pic is spindle gouges, all fingernail, top 45 degrees, middle 40 degrees and bottom 35 degrees. The last pic is my sharpening setup with all my turning tools (I'm a tool whore, what can I say). I use Coban to wrap my handles and color code them for easier identification.
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That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...

Last edited by sawdustfactory; 03-31-2011 at 09:55 PM. Reason: pics didn't load right
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post #19 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 10:48 PM Thread Starter
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Just to be clear, it looks like you only use the 'Wolverine' style jig to do a 45 deg. Regular grind (looks like my 1/2")? Same for the fingernail grind? No Vari-grind style jig?
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post #20 of 24 Old 03-31-2011, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by djg View Post
Just to be clear, it looks like you only use the 'Wolverine' style jig to do a 45 deg. Regular grind (looks like my 1/2")? Same for the fingernail grind? No Vari-grind style jig?
Sorry, but the opposite is true. I use the Vari-grind

for all my spindle and bowl gouges, regular and fingernail. I use the raptor tools to set the bar/socket thing at the right distance and use the varigrind for all of them. Only thing I sharpen on the long arm without the Varigrind is my roughing gouge. I sharpen my scrapers, skews and parting tools on the coarse wheel using the plate.
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That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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