removeing turning marks - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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removeing turning marks

i turn different types of wood and the marks are useually easy to get out but latley ive been turning Cedar from Florida ans the marks are imposible to get all the way out. ive gone to 600 gr. ,still there. most can't see them but i do.
Any sugestions would be helpfull.
thanks:leroy
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post #2 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leroy View Post
i turn different types of wood and the marks are useually easy to get out but latley ive been turning Cedar from Florida ans the marks are imposible to get all the way out. ive gone to 600 gr. ,still there. most can't see them but i do.
Any sugestions would be helpfull.
thanks:leroy
Got pics?
always helps
cedar is soft and easy to scratch
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post #3 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 09:38 AM
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A question for the question.........

Is this where reverse direction sanding comes into play?
I've had the same trouble with a couple of pieces of mahogany and wondered about reversing.

Learning more about tools everyday
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post #4 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 09:40 AM
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If youve already thought of this then please disregard but a while back I was getting crazy tear outs on opposite sides of my bowls and it seemed that no matter how much I sanded I couldnt get the marks out. Came to find out that my head stock had a HUGE wobble on it. Now Im not saying its a wobble as big as mine but truing up your headstock might help out. If the lathe has even a tiny wobble your sand paper will be hitting one side and missing the other causing sanding to take eons to complete. Also when I cant seem to get scratches out I take it back down to 60 grit until I cant see em anymore then move back up the ranks. AND I donno how tiny these scratches are but if they are so small others cant see em I would imagine its still a sand paper issue. I know that even when I wet sand with 600 sandpaper there are still TIIIIINY little scratches that go around but often moving the sandpaper a little faster can help get rid of those. move up to 1000 or something higher and I bet they go bye bye. Hope your get it figured out,
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post #5 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 09:53 AM
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A perfect final cut is the best way to avoid that problem. That's why I have gotten good at sanding. I'd say you should probably spend more time on the lower grits to get down through the tool marks then proceed through the grits, each one removing the sanding scratches left by the previous one. You should start with the highest grit that is still aggressive enough to get rid of the tool marks/tear out. My goal is to start at 220 but I regularly have to Start with 180 and sometimes use 120 on trouble spots first.
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post #6 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 10:13 AM
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As Robert said, cedar is easy to scratch. It is also very prone to cracking if you heat it up to much while sanding so use care with a heavy hand.
If you have a light you can bring parallel with the work; dampen the work with mineral spirits it is much easier to see the scratches. Stay with the course grit as long as there are deep scratches or tool marks. When the scratches are uniform (from the course paper) then move on to the next grit, repeat for each grit.
If you have a scratch that is there with 120 grit you can sand a long long time trying to remove it with 600. If you see a scratch when you finish with 180 go to the 120 to remove it. I only sand to 320 or 400 unless I want a really high gloss.
Some folks say sanding in reverse helps but I find sharp sandpaper helps the most. Used 120 arenít going to do the job of sharp 180.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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post #7 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 10:46 AM
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Several things: sharp tools, light final cuts. Sand in reverse versus forward doesn't make that much difference, more a matter of where the dust goes. Hand sanding versus power sanding, spinning disc to spinning bowl produces less scratches. Use sandpaper as if someone else is paying(fresh paper). I'll think of more later I'm sure. Good luck.

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #8 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 11:25 AM
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One other thing that helps is when you're done sanding, dust off your piece then buff it on the lathe with a piece of soft cotton. I use my old tube socks when they get a hole in them. Moderate pressure, don't leave it one spot too long. Helps to smooth things out and gives a nice surface to apply your finish to.
Mike Hawkins
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post #9 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 11:37 AM
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Well I"m not sure what marks your talking about. There are 3 types that are most common.
One is regular tool marks. These look like really tiny screw threads. Those are usually caused by pushing the tool too fast with the speed of the lathe too slow. fortunately they sand out pretty easily but increasing the lathe speed and slowing down your feed rate will get rid of them before you start sanding.
The second is burnish marks. These are caused by the heel of the bevel being too sharp and rubbing the wood. These you don't see until you get to about 600 grit of put the first layer of finish on. They look like uneven finish color and run parallel to the axis you were turning at. I don't know how to get rid of those once they are there. They go really deep. If you grind off the sharp corner at the bottom of the bevel you will eliminate this.
The last is called tearout. this is where the cutter pulls fibers out and leaves a bunch of holes. The first thing to try is to use a freshly sharpened gouge. Speed up the lathe and push the tool slowly letting it do the cutting. pushing a dull tool too fast is mostly what causes these. You can also try wetting the wood or putting some wax on the wood. This seems to help the fibers cut better. If it's punky wood you will need to stiffen it up. For really small areas I use thin CA and just soak that area. For larger areas I use thinned lacquer, let is soak in and dry. Sometimes it takes multiple coats if the wood is really punky.
OK there is actually a 4th and I'll call it torn grain. It's different than torn out grain in that is usually looks like raised fibers and appears as thought the tool isn't cutting well. This is usually caused by cutting up hill against the grain. On a side grain bowl or platter this will usually appear at about 10 oclock and 4 oclock. This is where the tool is cutting into the grain instead of down hill with the grain. If you cut in the opposite direction the tool will clean these areas up but often you will now get the same thing at 2 and 8 oclock. Pick which direction reduces it the most. Again sharp tools and slow cutting speed will help a lot.
As John Jordan says, the answer to most of your problems is sharpen your tools.
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post #10 of 17 Old 12-18-2011, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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i worked 2 or more hrs on this piece thismorning with same results. took it back to 60 grit then up to 1000. all i can say is that it is vertially imposible to get every mark out of Red Cedar. I believe because it is so soft. I mill my cedar myself and turn up to 18" in diameter and The Cedar is fun and easy to work with but a real pain to finish with. I useually hand sand the piece with the grain and it does come out well but i was hopeing someone could help me get out of that.
Anyway it was good to hear from everyone
and Have a Merry Christmas.

Keep on turnning:Leroy
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post #11 of 17 Old 12-19-2011, 12:04 PM
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Here's my routine. I power sand with a Dewalt electric drill and discs and pads I get from Vinceswoodnwonders. then after each grit I hand sand in the direction of the grain with that same grit. Blow out the dust because it gets trapped in the deeper grooves of the sandpaper and you won't see it until you get to 600 grit.
I use a strong point source light and move it around to cast shadows on the sanding lines to find them all. I also have problems sanding cedar and soft maples to get rid of every line. It takes patience and careful looking to find all the lines. sometimes wiping it with Naptha will pull out the dust and show the sanding lines better.
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post #12 of 17 Old 12-19-2011, 12:58 PM
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Here is a Cedar lidded bowl made many years ago using nothing but faceplates, glue, and jam chuck, gouges, parting tool and skew. Lessons learned very simply watch your design, maybe no way to hide mistakes. Do not rely on sandpaper to hide mistakes. Sandpaper can create problems too!
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post #13 of 17 Old 12-19-2011, 06:20 PM
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try steel wool, 00 is = 500 grit and 0000 is =1000 thats what i turn and finish with. leaves it feeling and looking like glass. softer woods and when getting down to finish product go lighter on pressure
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post #14 of 17 Old 12-19-2011, 07:53 PM
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Smile

If its spindle turning then after each grit sand with the grain and all scratches will be gone then move onto next grit and continue. If bowl or platter turning then you need to saty with the same grit. I would not start with anything heavier than 80 grit. If your work in your opinion needs a heavier grit I would go back to the chisels. Chisel work is paramount. Sharp chiesels are paramount to good work.
Hope this helps
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post #15 of 17 Old 12-20-2011, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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This is a piece i did last week. shows the marks im wanting not to be there.
leroy

after uploading the pics its not showing the marks to good but believe me they are there

removeing turning marks-bowls-001.jpg

removeing turning marks-bowls-002.jpg

Last edited by leroy; 12-20-2011 at 08:24 AM.
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post #16 of 17 Old 12-20-2011, 09:27 AM
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As pretty a cedar can be, it's still a soft wood which makes for difficult turning to a smooth surface. You are going to be going directly against the grain at some points. It will take a ton of sanding to get out 1/8" deep blow outs, way more than you want to do. The same basic thing can happen when doing cabinet work with figured grain. Some of the tactics used in that work may be applicable for you.

The cutting bevel used on plane blades and machine knives is changed to a more blunt angle. You didn't say what type of turning tools you are using. Perhaps a change in the angle could help. Scrapers can also be a way to go. As always, the key is seriously sharp tools, very light cuts. Wetting the surface of the work can help, makes it a bit more pliable rather than brittle.

What are you using for a finish? Probably not the Bush! If something like linseed oil, mineral oil, you could try heating it up, double boiler, no open flames, preferably outside and applying as much as you can soak in while you still have about 1/8" yet to go on the turning. In the olden days, we did shaker tables in pine, kept slathering the top with warm linseed oil until it bled out the back side, so I know that will penetrate.

If you can determine where the grain is likely to give you problems, you may be able to coat that area with Crazy glue. The big issue is avoiding the blow out rather than trying to remove it. Those sanding tools by Robert Sorby work very well but are not that great up against a ridge and other precise areas. They give a random orbit like cut so you don't have straight striations like you do holding sandpaper. Excellent for smooth surfaces.
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post #17 of 17 Old 12-20-2011, 09:29 AM
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There's your problem, too much beer. :) Either that or not enough. Look at the piece through beer goggles and all your problems will go away.
The outside looks like you simply didn't get rid of the sanding marks from the first grit. It's hard to go back down in grit but usually when I see lines I either go back to the first grit I started with or the next step up. Sometimes you need to sand at a slower speed. Bowls tend to warp as your turn them. If you sand at high speed the sandpaper bounces over the low spots and you don't get even sanding. when I really have an area that is difficult I stop the lathe and hand sand that one area.
The inside looks like your having tearout. It can be touch turning a flat bottom like that. Take very small cuts with a flat scraper or even better learn to use one of the Hunter tools. I like to use a Hunter #5 for turning flat bottoms but it takes practice. You can find my video on using the Hunter tools here. I am using the Hunter #4 in this video because the 5 had not come out.
http://www.cumberlandwoodturners.com/htm/movies.htm
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