What's the correct method to join these? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 35 Old 03-05-2020, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
What's the correct method to join these?

Hello,

Would you please tell me what is the best method, particularly for a beginner, to assemble the frame shown in the picture? I am considering the use of pocket holes to join the 2x4s and 4x4s. However, I am concerned that this method may not be appropriate. An example of why: The center joint (looks like an "X", where one 2x4 is met with 2 other 2x4s that are opposite of each other, appears that pocket hole screws will interfere with each other. The interference could prevent proper usage of the screws, or it may weaken the integrity of the joint. The other joints may suffer issues with pocket holes due to the angles. Am I correct? I have also considered cross-lap joints at the "X", but I fear my skill set is insufficient. I greatly look forward to your recommendations. Thank you for your time.
Note: I have used the free version of Sketchup to create the frame. I also included the file predicting its usefulness for some.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bench image.JPG
Views:	56
Size:	123.0 KB
ID:	385501  

Attached Files
File Type: skp Table saw work bench (1).skp (214.4 KB, 78 views)
Hoshijiro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 35 Old 03-05-2020, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
 
firehawkmph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Near Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 5,023
View firehawkmph's Photo Album My Photos
Depends on what you are using this for. Is this a work bench, coffee table, etc.? You could do the whole thing with pocket screws. Where they meet at the X, you drill holes on opposite sides of the pieces that are running parallel with the length. You don't need them on both sides of each piece. Pocket screws and glue are probably the easier method if your skills aren't up there yet. Another way would to use mortise and tenon joinery. It isn't that difficult if you take your time to correctly lay out all the joints before you start cutting.
Mike Hawkins
TobyC likes this.
firehawkmph is offline  
post #3 of 35 Old 03-05-2020, 06:02 PM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,934
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Pocket screws are fasteners, not a joinery method, no matter what Kreg claims

Don't get me wrong, I like pocket screws and use them in my work, but they have areas where they should be used, like making a cabinet carcass, and areas where they shouldn't, like attaching table legs to the apron. The screws will pull out, it's a question of when, not if, and you'll be left with a wobbly, barely assembled table.

In your particular case, look into dowel joints. They're probably the most beginner friendly method of joinery and are more than strong enough, just barely behind a traditional mortise and tenon joint. For corners where the dowels might interfere with each other, like the center cross in your model, you can simply offset the hole locations so the dowels don't make contact. Alternately, a half lap is incredibly simple to accomplish and may work better in this instance

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail
epicfail48 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 35 Old 03-05-2020, 06:40 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,656
View FrankC's Photo Album My Photos
There is no correct method of joinery, only a preferred method, whatever works with the tools and talent you have will be the best you can do.

Mortice and tenon would likely be the preferred method, but dowels, pocket screws, nails, etc. will all hold the parts together.

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

FrankC
http://sawdustmaking.com
http://woodworkerglossary.com
FrankC is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to FrankC For This Useful Post:
Hoshijiro (03-06-2020)
post #5 of 35 Old 03-05-2020, 07:02 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 16
View SleepingTiger's Photo Album My Photos
Just get u a domino xl and the Seneca tool adapter kit to use the smaller cutter heads.
SleepingTiger is offline  
post #6 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 12:01 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 823
View Terry Q's Photo Album My Photos
If all those joints are going to be held together with pocket hole screws then you better not plan on moving the table, because dragging or pushing it is going to put a lot of stress on the joints.

Not to tell you how to build a bench, but it would be much easier and stronger if you build the legs out of doubled up 2x4s, but cut the outer 2x4 to fit around 2x4ís that run the length of your bench.

An additional advantage of doing it this way is the 2x4 apron will be flush with the legs and bench top, allowing for many more clamping possibilities.
Terry Q is offline  
post #7 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 06:43 AM
johnep
 
johnep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Anglia UK
Posts: 1,954
View johnep's Photo Album My Photos
I would watch a few videos first on various methods of joining at right angles.

Pocket Hole Cross Doweling by OTB Thinker (not an actual link but the title)
Try this one on utube

johnep

Last edited by johnep; 03-06-2020 at 06:52 AM.
johnep is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to johnep For This Useful Post:
Hoshijiro (03-06-2020)
post #8 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
Thank you for the advice. I am using this as a workbench. I feel more confident using pocket holes, so that is the method I shall use. I'll be sure to keep the "X" connections opposite of each other.
firehawkmph likes this.
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #9 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
Thank you for the advice. I like the dowl method. However, my confidence is low due to inexperience, so I fear I will be unsuccessful. Although, like my other activities, I won't succeed until I fail and learn from the mistakes. Perhaps I shall attempt a few.
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #10 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
As much as I would like the addition, the tool far exceeds my budget. Perhaps one day I will have one.
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #11 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
You have offered methods to contemplate. I will create a new model with your suggestions. Thank you kindly!
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #12 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 10:19 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Troy Michigan USA
Posts: 1,222
View gmercer_48083's Photo Album My Photos
I would use two 3/4" dowels. Drill through the short brace and into the long braces. Make the dowels long (say 5") and glue. You could also add corner blocks to reinforce it if needed. Fasten with screws to the top.

Gary

Woodworking is like wetting myself....Only I know that warm feeling!
gmercer_48083 is offline  
post #13 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 10:20 AM
CharleyL
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Central North Carolina
Posts: 281
View CharleyL's Photo Album My Photos
Add glue to your pocket holed joints and it should be significantly stronger, but in my opinion, pocket hole joinery is NOT a good way to join the frame of a workbench. There are often significant side stresses on a workbench when using hand tools. Half lap joints can be made with just a saw and screws and would be significantly stronger, but I would add glue to these joints as well.

Charley
CharleyL is offline  
post #14 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
Thank you for the advice. I very much appreciate the detail provided. I shall consider these during assembly.
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #15 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
Member
 
Hoshijiro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 30
View Hoshijiro's Photo Album My Photos
I have conducted much research. The general consensus is pocket holes are not best for structures under stress. Thank you for the additional confirmation.
Hoshijiro is offline  
post #16 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 11:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 67
View woodshed's Photo Album My Photos
All above answers assuming you have tools for wood joinery. Many ways making mortice tenon and other wood joints, but you need tools. What tools you got now for making wood joints? Are you wanting advice buying tools to make joints for above frame design? What is budget?

Do you have some of these tools?
Marking tool, chisel, sharpening for chisel, drill, drill press, mortiser, plunge router, router bits, table saw, dado, jigs for tenon or jigs for dowel or other jigs. Do you have pocket screw jig now, or thinking about buying? Pocket screws are fast and easy answer, but not best answer.

Glue is making joints much stronger, but pocket screws not good answer.
woodshed is offline  
post #17 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 01:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 103
View JohnGi's Photo Album My Photos
Add my name to the list of dowel supporters. Some basic wood engineering:
At the cross or "T" joints, the shorter span should be the through span--the principal span--and the longer spans are tributary spans.
You weaken the principal span less if you remove material at the center, the neutral axis, rather than the top or bottom, the compression and tension plates respectively. One big dowel right in the middle sounds odd and needs to be reinforced against rotation, but it is strongest.
The bearing strength of a joint depends on the bearing area of the weaker material. A small steel pin or screw may have the shear strength of a much larger wood dowel, but the limit of the strength is the bearing area of the wood that the pin or dowel sits on.
If you have to use cross lap joints remember: the short span is the principal span, so you want to remove the upper portion (the compression plate) of the principal span, replacing it with a plug of roughly equal compressive strength, and leave the tension plate (the lower portion of the principal [shorter] span) intact.
JohnGi is offline  
post #18 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 04:09 PM
Village Idiot
 
epicfail48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 4,934
View epicfail48's Photo Album My Photos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshijiro View Post
Thank you for the advice. I like the dowl method. However, my confidence is low due to inexperience, so I fear I will be unsuccessful. Although, like my other activities, I won't succeed until I fail and learn from the mistakes. Perhaps I shall attempt a few.
You'll never get anywhere if you let lack of confidence stop you from trying new techniques, particularly when the techniques you are comfortable with aren't appropriate for what you want to do. A workbench is going to be under a lot of stress, assuming you actually plan on working on it and not just letting it sit there. Pushing, pulling, twisting, every force is going to try to rip those screws out and they WILL rip out, and in fairly short order at that.

Honestly there's nothing difficult about dowel joints, a simple drilling jig and some layout lines are all you need to get them perfect. It's honestly as simple as drilling holes in the same place on both pieces, then adding glue and a stick before clamping. The end result is a joint that will split the wood apart before failing, rather than a screw that will just pull out

I need cheaper hobby
etsy.com/shop/projectepicfail
epicfail48 is offline  
post #19 of 35 Old 03-06-2020, 04:21 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 5,656
View FrankC's Photo Album My Photos
If you go with dowels pick up some of these, they make life a lot easier

https://www.rockler.com/dowel-center...izes?sid=AF078

Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something -Plato

FrankC
http://sawdustmaking.com
http://woodworkerglossary.com
FrankC is offline  
post #20 of 35 Old 03-09-2020, 08:19 AM
Absolute newbie
 
Nick Andriopoulos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 11
View Nick Andriopoulos's Photo Album My Photos
Hello from another newbie that is trying to do almost the same thing as you!

Since my expertise is also low, but wanted some joinery to get some experience out of this basic project, I went with a different route - see here (some plans included, let me know if you want the latest updated ones).

I've partially built this and it's already one solid piece. Will be adding the middle legs and fixing my mistakes in the coming week.

Nick
--
Motto: "It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice."
Nick Andriopoulos is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome