Were you to glue up this table top??? - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Were you to glue up this table top???

Would you glue-up in the rough and then finish, or would you thickness plane first, then glue-up and finish???

Were you to glue up this table top???-001.jpg
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post #2 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 12:03 PM
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Would you glue-up in the rough and then finish, or would you thickness plane first, then glue-up and finish???

Attachment 32340
What would you do?








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post #3 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 12:06 PM
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At least skip plane em so that you can properly joint the edges. No reason to wait till after the glue up though.

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...
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post #4 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 12:11 PM
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My plan would be

I would joint one surface for flatness, then joint both edges referencing off the flat surface to the fence. I would not thickness plane, as you want to keep as much material thickness as possible.

Knowing I have a source/friend with a 42" wide belt sander, I would select the boards for flatness, edge joint them for straightness and glue them with cauls to keep the whole setup as flat as possible.
Glue may cause the boards to shift slightly when pressure is applied, so be watchful and apply pressure gradually. After it's set I'd bring it to the nearest cabinet shop and have them run it though the wide belt.

If you are up for a challenge with hand planes then have at it. It will be rewarding if you can accomplish it, but keep in mind it will take several planes in scary sharp condition. bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 11-24-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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post #5 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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What would you do?











.
I'm not sure, have to make a decision.

Dimensions are kind of within 3/32", if I thickness plane it will save a lot of time, but if I hand belt sand, or hand plane after glue up, it will be a thicker top. Hard Maple, may get some tear-out on the planer, could make things worse.
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post #6 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by WillemJM View Post
I'm not sure, have to make a decision.

Dimensions are kind of within 3/32", if I thickness plane it will save a lot of time, but if I hand belt sand, or hand plane after glue up, it will be a thicker top. Hard Maple, may get some tear-out on the planer, could make things worse.
You could face joint the good side. Then edge joint both edges. Then plane for thickness on the bad side. When you clamp up for gluing, cauls done properly should align the good side. You may wind up with just cleaning off the glue.





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post #7 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 05:02 PM
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I'm with C-man. Joint, edge joint, rough plane, glue, finish plane/sand.

That bowl was perfect right up until that last cut...
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post #8 of 43 Old 11-24-2011, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the help.

I had one board which differed too much in dimension, decided to replace it and my glue-up is ready. Decided to leave everything in the rough biggest difference is around 1/32" so we will play with hand planes, the exercise will do me good.

I have never used cauls, good idea one day. I use a joint bit in my shaper, which is very forgiving, it aligns both the boards and prevents cupping, even if you clamp wrong. The joint kind of fixes that.

Joint bits are used a lot in Europe, but not well known in the US. If you don't know their tricks, you will probably end up throwing them in the trash and never try again.

If my dimensions were off more, Cabinet Man had the right idea I believe.

Pictures below.

Glue up

Were you to glue up this table top???-002.jpg

Joint bit

Were you to glue up this table top???-003.jpg
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post #9 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 07:08 AM
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I had one board which differed too much in dimension, decided to replace it and my glue-up is ready. Decided to leave everything in the rough biggest difference is around 1/32" so we will play with hand planes, the exercise will do me good.
That's one way of looking at it.

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I have never used cauls, good idea one day.
Cauls will save your butt. Using them is about as accurate of a way possible to get good alignment. I wouldn't do even a simple glue up without setting up for their use. Besides just using a straight edge, very thin shims make the process more precise, and less of a chance for mis-alignment.

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I use a joint bit in my shaper, which is very forgiving, it aligns both the boards and prevents cupping, even if you clamp wrong. The joint kind of fixes that.
I've used that type of bit in both a shaper and a router table and it's not forgiving at all. You wind up with what you machined, and there is no fudge factor.

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Joint bits are used a lot in Europe, but not well known in the US. If you don't know their tricks, you will probably end up throwing them in the trash and never try again.
You might have just found out about joint bits. They may be used in Europe, but they have been used here in the US for as long as I can remember. It's not like a revelation that the idea has just crept up on our shores, making their use a whole new experience.

In using that bit, the recommended steps would be to plane for thickness first. Reason being, that the alignment of the parts after machining depends on the bit being centered to the edge of the board. Used in a table, the board gets machined one side, and the mating board gets flipped to the other side. The possibility of misalignment of the machined edge is prevalent with any deflection in the length of the run, or operator error. There's very little that can be done once the joint(s) have been machined.

In a perfect world, with perfect stock, and a perfect operator, I still wouldn't use that bit for gluing up panels. All can be going so well, and...oops...there goes the edge with a little tear out. The process can turn out to be one big fire drill, costing time and materials.








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post #10 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabinetman View Post
That's one way of looking at it.



Cauls will save your butt. Using them is about as accurate of a way possible to get good alignment. I wouldn't do even a simple glue up without setting up for their use. Besides just using a straight edge, very thin shims make the process more precise, and less of a chance for mis-alignment.



I've used that type of bit in both a shaper and a router table and it's not forgiving at all. You wind up with what you machined, and there is no fudge factor.



You might have just found out about joint bits. They may be used in Europe, but they have been used here in the US for as long as I can remember. It's not like a revelation that the idea has just crept up on our shores, making their use a whole new experience.

In using that bit, the recommended steps would be to plane for thickness first. Reason being, that the alignment of the parts after machining depends on the bit being centered to the edge of the board. Used in a table, the board gets machined one side, and the mating board gets flipped to the other side. The possibility of misalignment of the machined edge is prevalent with any deflection in the length of the run, or operator error. There's very little that can be done once the joint(s) have been machined.

In a perfect world, with perfect stock, and a perfect operator, I still wouldn't use that bit for gluing up panels. All can be going so well, and...oops...there goes the edge with a little tear out. The process can turn out to be one big fire drill, costing time and materials.











.
You are right about a joint bit being around forever. I come from a woodworking family, 8 generations long and they have been around as long as I can remember.

Like you, everyone in the US I have ever spoken to, shy away from them. In Europe, most cabinet makers use them, the way I was taught at 11 years old.

You are also right that once machined, that's it and it is what it is.

Boards don't have to be the same thickness though and if they are not, it is possible to get perfect alignment on one face, by measuring and adjusting for each cut. I can get an accuracy of up to 0.001" that way. In the latter case if a board varies in thickness across it's length, a shaper won't do it but a router will.

You can also glue up twisted and bowed boards and have them straight after glue-up, using a router and a joint bit, provided you plan the machining carefully.

The reason I have never tried cauls, is because they require more space in my shop to store. In the old days glue was not what it is today, which is why this is what I was taught.

I will try cauls one day though.
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post #11 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 10:57 AM
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Boards don't have to be the same thickness though and if they are not, it is possible to get perfect alignment on one face, by measuring and adjusting for each cut. I can get an accuracy of up to 0.001" that way.
Well, I gotta hand it to ya. I wouldn't bother with that kind of insanity. Besides, I stay away from measurements that far from the decimal. I may choose to split the 1/64" line and that's about it for me, but don't tell my clients.

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The reason I have never tried cauls, is because they require more space in my shop to store. In the old days glue was not what it is today, which is why this is what I was taught.

I will try cauls one day though.
In the old days the glue was pretty much as it is today. Titebond, and Elmers did then, what they do now. I don't think resorcinol glue has changed one bit. As for storing cauls, no problem, they are just straight edges, and can get hung, or stacked as needed. I consider them as important as any other jig necessary to do quality work.








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post #12 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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In the old days the glue was pretty much as it is today. Titebond, and Elmers did then, what they do now.











.
That depends on how old you are, or how old your mentor was.

This glue-up is done and as always it's one of the more nervous jobs, but it went perfect as planned.

Next time I will try cauls, what lumber did you use for them and were they laminated, or solid lumber?

Also, if your boards are not too straight, lining up with shims, you have 20 minutes right? On a large job, that is not much.

PS.

0.4mm is a lot easier than 1/64", or can I twist your arm to work withing 1/2mm?
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post #13 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 12:16 PM
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I hate to be THAT guy (ok maybe I don't hate it) but William, if your so damned sure of what you are doing and how to do it then why the thread / question???

C-man made a lot of good points and I'm having a hard time understanding why you asked if you have no plans of heading advice.

I'm with c-man all the same but to each his own.

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...
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post #14 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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I hate to be THAT guy (ok maybe I don't hate it) but William, if your so damned sure of what you are doing and how to do it then why the thread / question???

C-man made a lot of good points and I'm having a hard time understanding why you asked if you have no plans of heading advice.

I'm with c-man all the same but to each his own.

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...
Because we are all different with different ideas. So what I have learnt in this thread is that the way I glue up a top does not swing from the normal tree. Next time, perhaps I do it your way and maybe that works better.

In the end, it's good to hear other opionions, but also good to do what we are used to, if time is an issue. The time to make or get cauls for my project was not in my time budget this time.

For me this is not a comptetion, it is about sharing woodwork practices and thanks for those who contributed, I did learn something.
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post #15 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 05:07 PM
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I would joint one surface for flatness, then joint both edges referencing off the flat surface to the fence. I would not thickness plane, as you want to keep as much material thickness as possible.

Knowing I have a source/friend with a 42" wide belt sander, I would select the boards for flatness, edge joint them for straightness and glue them with cauls to keep the whole setup as flat as possible.
Glue may cause the boards to shift slightly when pressure is applied, so be watchful and apply pressure gradually. After it's set I'd bring it to the nearest cabinet shop and have them run it though the wide belt.

If you are up for a challenge with hand planes then have at it. It will be rewarding if you can accomplish it, but keep in mind it will take several planes in scary sharp condition. bill
I'm glad no one noticed my response... bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #16 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 07:22 PM
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I'm glad no one noticed my response... bill
That one made me laugh OUT LOUD!

Thanks

Fabian

Fabian

I used to be fairly indecisive, but now....... I'm not so sure.
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post #17 of 43 Old 11-25-2011, 08:19 PM
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I do my best

I either offer good advice or advice that no one notices, but that's Ok 'cause I have attention deficit disfunction. If I don't get any attention, I get disfunctionally deficient, but I'm able to function OK without paying attention. The last time I paid attention was in high school when the head of the discipline room in charge of 5,280 boys threw a chalk filled eraser to the head of a guy sleeping in the back in plane geometry class. After the dust cleared he asked "Is everyone paying attention now?" Corporal punishment was "allowed" then. bill

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)
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post #18 of 43 Old 11-26-2011, 08:59 PM
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I'm sorry I left you out, C-man's comments were just last in line. I gave advise too with no heed too... I was simply annoyed by the disregard for advise after post.

~tom ...it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt...
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post #19 of 43 Old 11-26-2011, 09:29 PM
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I was going to suggest gluing the top in smaller sections...
... of 2 pieces per section...
... remove glue & thickness plane as required.

Glue 2 other pieces together... & those pieces together... building to two pieces of equal size...

Then, glue the last two sections together...

Then, it would be ready to Finish... I think I'd wait and do all of the Finishing at one time.

Might be easier than fighting all of the slipping & sliding of ALL pieces at the same time...

Looks like a nice top you're making...

Looks like you;re getting there... too!

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post #20 of 43 Old 11-26-2011, 11:19 PM
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I admit that I'm a little lost as to the query on this thread as to the glue up of a table top by an experienced woodworker but then I find myself lost on a lot of things and I guess an open discussion concerning different ways of completing the same task could be a good thing. I have my way of doing it but enough suggestions have already been submitted so I wont go there but I do have a question about using a joint bit as was shown. Will you be leaving the grain end of the table exposed or will you add a breadboard edge? If you use this glue joint on all your glue ups are you pretty much limited to square or rectanguler table tops? Just curious...
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