Table saw accuracy - Page 2 - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #21 of 47 Old 09-05-2020, 08:25 PM
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That Incra LS is an impressive tool, but with 72" rails, too wide for my little Delta hybrid saw that has to fit in a 64" wide space along the wall of my shop/garage while not in use. The right side has a shop-made router table/extension.

Does anyone know of another good alternative to my Delta knock-off Beesemeier-style T-fence, that could deliver accuracy approaching the Incra system?

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post #22 of 47 Old 09-05-2020, 11:35 PM
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The Incra LS Positioning fence is unlike any other fence on the market.

Once you understand how to use an Incra fence youíll change the way you use table saw fences. For instance, if you needed some thin strips, say 1/8 inch or less.

There are a bunch of jigs and devices to help push a board past the blade with your typical fence, but with an LS Positioning fence itís a completely different procedure. You grab a nice wide board, set your fence to the nearest 1/32 inch width of your board and rip your board parallel. Then subtract the kerf of your blade (full kerf 1/8Ē blades makes for easier calculations) and the desired thickness of strip, as thin as 1/32, and move the fence. Shove the nice wide board past the blade and your strip comes off the outside. You keep moving the fence. Impossible with standard fence, but with Incra fence it is accurate and easy to do.

Before giving up on the idea you should write to Incra technical support asking for advice for fitting a fence to your saw. Itís probably something they deal with on a regular basis.
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post #23 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 12:31 AM
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"Before giving up on the idea you should write to Incra technical support asking for advice for fitting a fence to your saw. It’s probably something they deal with on a regular basis."

I've done that already, but as I think about it further, I realize that at 72" long rails, Incra gives only 32" of cut to the right of blade. Cutting off 10" of the rails would likely leave me with only 22" maximum cut. My old Delta T-fence gives me 31 1/2" cut and I don't have to remove it in order to run a router bit with a bearing on my right-side router table/extension.

I like the idea of precision, but spending $500 for 30% less cut capacity doesn't much appeal to me.
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post #24 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 02:19 AM
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Install dado blades . Clamp a short fence to your fence for setting distance only. Cut your keys to length and clamp a key to the miter gauge fence. Bring the blades UP to height. This is important as lowering dado blades often results in blade drop. The short fence is set to the shoulder distance and then the key is clamped. You will pass the short fence for the actual sawing. This eliminates the key binding between the fence and the blades.
Make a pass, turn key over and repeat. You will have a shoulder cut on each side of the key. Set one key aside and repeat for the remaining keys.
Now make a jig . Plywood or MDF base about 8"x8" . Add a strip 1/32 or so thicker than the keys and about 4" wide.
This strip is fastened on the MDF . Notch the strip for the width of the saw cut and also the length. The length is not real critical because you made the shoulder cuts first. Add a top to the strip to keep the key trapped in the notch and your fingers away from the blade. If you have compressed air, blow the off cut off the table.
Make the cut on each piece, just one side for now. When the keys are done on one side then add a spacer to the jig the width of the cut . This prevents the key from tilting
to the right side of the jig. The keys are then cut.
A Freud glue line blade will make a clean cut . If the dado blades do not give you a smooth cut, make the pass a bit heavy and clean up with a chisel or sanding.
There is another way without dado blades and without the jig described. You would need a tenon jig . Because the cut strip will be trapped between the blade and the fence I won't recommend it for most woodworkers.
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post #25 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 04:48 AM
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Table saw accuracy = fence accuracy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet999 View Post
That Incra LS is an impressive tool, but with 72" rails, too wide for my little Delta hybrid saw that has to fit in a 64" wide space along the wall of my shop/garage while not in use. The right side has a shop-made router table/extension.

Does anyone know of another good alternative to my Delta knock-off Beesemeier-style T-fence, that could deliver accuracy approaching the Incra system?
As Terry Q correctly points out below, the Incra relies on a "positioning" system using a rack and pinion if I recall from having my friend demonstrate his to me. It is very "accurate" in that it will locate in precise increments when you "position" it. It will also be parallel to the miter slots, which is critical.

Your Delta clone will not "position" itself incrementally, you must set it each time either by measuring from the blade to the fence OR by using a spacer block between them. It will also lock down parallel to the miter slots, IF it's at all like my Biesemeyer fence(s). The Wixey digital tape system comes as close as anything out there to position the fence without actually using a separate measurement each time you adjust the fence.

So, what's "accuracy" really mean in this context? It means repeatabilty as far as I can tell.
Then here's the issue: Where is the accuracy desired, in the distance from the blade to the fence for getting the same thickness rip OR a repeatable offcut? You can't have both, because in one case the fence is stationary, in the other case, it's being moved and reset each time. If you don't move the fence each rip will be exactly the same ...... in my experience. If you move the fence for each rip, you must rely on a "bump" type jig to reposition it for each successive rip. That will typically get you very close, but there is some room for error IF the fence doesn't lock precisely each time. My Biesemeyer fences do, so not a problem for me.

I don't think you can "get there from here" and have the best of both worlds without sacrificing something .... either rail length and capacity OR hand positioning and measuring each time and or using a "bumping" system. You have to pick one or the other.
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Originally Posted by Terry Q View Post
The Incra LS Positioning fence is unlike any other fence on the market.

Once you understand how to use an Incra fence you’ll change the way you use table saw fences. For instance, if you needed some thin strips, say 1/8 inch or less.

There are a bunch of jigs and devices to help push a board past the blade with your typical fence, but with an LS Positioning fence it’s a completely different procedure. You grab a nice wide board, set your fence to the nearest 1/32 inch width of your board and rip your board parallel. Then subtract the kerf of your blade (full kerf 1/8” blades makes for easier calculations) and the desired thickness of strip, as thin as 1/32, and move the fence. Shove the nice wide board past the blade and your strip comes off the outside. You keep moving the fence. Impossible with standard fence, but with Incra fence it is accurate and easy to do.

Before giving up on the idea you should write to Incra technical support asking for advice for fitting a fence to your saw. It’s probably something they deal with on a regular basis.
Thanks for pointing this out, it led me to my conclusion above.

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-06-2020 at 05:19 AM.
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post #26 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 08:20 AM
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Iím not exactly sure what youíre doing but you can make a stop stick that registers off the table saw edge to the fence.

A small heel attached to the end is more accurate than feeling for flush. Clamp before setting fence.
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post #27 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet999 View Post
That Incra LS is an impressive tool, but with 72" rails, too wide for my little Delta hybrid saw that has to fit in a 64" wide space along the wall of my shop/garage while not in use. The right side has a shop-made router table/extension.

Does anyone know of another good alternative to my Delta knock-off Beesemeier-style T-fence, that could deliver accuracy approaching the Incra system?
Although the incra rails come in a 72" and 92" variants they are easily cut down on a miter saw with a general purpose blade. I ordered a couple of extra incra rails which I cut to a custom length so I could place it on either side of my table saw to cover both router tables as well as my bandsaw. The incra base unit is moved easily and the different positions you want to use it at are fixed by a set of simple locks that you place wherever you want on the rails.

I have my fence mounted so I get the full 32" reach to the right of my saw blade. That puts the end of the positioner base about 44 1/2" away from the blade. So if your 64" space limit is only when you're storing your table saw you should be OK. That being said when you're actually using the fence and you want to take the full 32" cut the end of the positioner rail will extend out to almost 75" from your blade.

One thing I didn't realize when I ordered the incra fence with a 52" reach is that incra uses the same positioner for their 32" reach setup and the 52" reach setup. No mater which option you choose the positioner itself will only provide 32" of reach. The 52" version just comes with longer rails and a few more positioner stops.
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post #28 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucet999 View Post
... I realize that at 72" long rails, Incra gives only 32" of cut to the right of blade. Cutting off 10" of the rails would likely leave me with only 22" maximum cut. My old Delta T-fence gives me 31 1/2" cut and I don't have to remove it in order to run a router bit with a bearing on my right-side router table/extension.

I like the idea of precision, but spending $500 for 30% less cut capacity doesn't much appeal to me.
That assumption is incorrect. The picture below is with 72" rails (sorry for the mess). I currently have the base mounted to take a full 32" cut but I have another 20" of rail behind the current position. I could get a 52" cut using the 72" rails if I wanted to with this setup.

I have a little longer reach with the 72" rails because I don't have an extension to the left of my table saw blade due to the slide I use. The reason that Incra sells 92" rails to support their advertised 52" cut is because most people have some sort of table extension to the left of their blade.

When trying to decide what length of cut you'll get you just need to add about 12" to the length of the cut to account for the base. For instance to get a 32" cut the base is actually about 44 1/2" from the saw blade. If you want a 52" cut you'll need about 66" from the saw blade.


Table saw accuracy-img_1299.jpg

Last edited by Bernie_72; 09-06-2020 at 10:54 AM.
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post #29 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 12:01 PM
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Cutting a duplicate

I'll cut a duplicate piece to match one I already have without taking any measurements or trial and error adjustments using a scrap piece.
I take the scrap, tape it to the original, set the saw fence to trim the scrap, and run them through as a pair.



Then I tape the new, oversized, piece to the scrap block, and without changing the fence setting run them through as a pair. The new piece is now the same width as the original.



I set the stop on the radial arm saw to trim the end of the scrap block with the original and the scrap set end to end against the stop.



After I trim the end of the scrap block, I set it and the new piece end to end against the stop.



After trimming, the new piece matches the original to the limits of the machine accuracy. This took about 10 minutes.

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Brilliant, John. Thanks for the photos too, I wouldn't have been able to picture it without them!
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post #31 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 04:42 PM
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the whole discussion boils down to being able to set the fence at a distance _exactly_ to match the "original width"
nothing more, nothing less.
fancy doodads like the Incra simply allow one to micro adjust the fence distance with less pain than loosening the fence lock.
it's not "more accurate" because you are trying to match an original dimension - not some number on a scale.

it's not a question of "accuracy" - it's a question of "ease of control"


in my personal experience, the run out of a 10" table saw blade varies by mounting position. the variable run out can vary the finished cut dimension by 0.010" - bottom line: same blade mounted on same table saw with (assumed) same fence setting = different width ....
so basically there is absolutely no substitute for 'trial and error' - make a cut, check against original, move the fence as needed.....

I disagree to the utmost of putting "the original" on the table for "simultaneous" adjustment.
any boo-boo of any amount that shaves something off the original leaves you without a reference.
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post #32 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie_72 View Post
I have my fence mounted so I get the full 32" reach to the right of my saw blade. That puts the end of the positioner base about 44 1/2" away from the blade. So if your 64" space limit is only when you're storing your table saw you should be OK. That being said when you're actually using the fence and you want to take the full 32" cut the end of the positioner rail will extend out to almost 75" from your blade.
I assume that the positioner base is the "guide box" with the red lever, mounted on that wide bar between the rails? How far do the rails extend to the right of that? The rails would be my limiting factor for fitting into the 64" wide space where I have to park the saw against the wall, unless the positioner rail extends beyond them.

Presumably, I could cut off parts of the rails on the left side flush with the saw table (20 1/4" from the blade). I guess that would limit left-side cuts to about 9", which is ok, since I don't think I have done a left-side cut in 15 years and that is about how much my existing fence allows anyway.

The accuracy and repeatability of the Incra system appeals to me especially now that I have committed to making a couple hundred of my little secret boxes for Toymakers charity this year and maybe 500 next year, made in batches of 30 or so. The 5/32" thick sliding lids are cut off the 8/4 blanks before the insides are hogged out and the dovetail track is routed. They need to be accurate and uniform both for the dovetail depth to work, and also for the CNC flower design cut into the tops, so we have only one setup.

BruceT

Last edited by brucet999; 09-06-2020 at 07:55 PM.
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post #33 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernie_72 View Post
When trying to decide what length of cut you'll get you just need to add about 12" to the length of the cut to account for the base. For instance to get a 32" cut the base is actually about 44 1/2" from the saw blade. If you want a 52" cut you'll need about 66" from the saw blade.
Thanks, you explain this tool much better than the manufacturer does.

In the images, I saw a stop bolt in the rails as a limiter for mounting the big cross bar between the rails. How close to the end can that be set?

That 12 1/2" figure you mentioned is a little unclear to me as to measured from-where-to-where. If I cut the rails to 62 1/4" (to allow about 1" space on each side when "parking" the saw in its wall space) mounting them flush with the left side of my saw table, the right ends of the rails would be 42" from the blade. Taking into account the stop bolt on the rail, the wide cross bar and "guide box" which locks the positioner bar, how wide a cut can I get to the right of the blade?

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post #34 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCT2 View Post
in my personal experience, the run out of a 10" table saw blade varies by mounting position. the variable run out can vary the finished cut dimension by 0.010" - bottom line: same blade mounted on same table saw with (assumed) same fence setting = different width ....
so basically there is absolutely no substitute for 'trial and error' - make a cut, check against original, move the fence as needed.....
Can you explain the mounting position for me? Are you saying that the saw's arbor may have runout and a blade removed, then put back on will have a different amount of runout than if it had before?

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post #35 of 47 Old 09-06-2020, 08:31 PM
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When checking for run out ....

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Can you explain the mounting position for me? Are you saying that the saw's arbor may have runout and a blade removed, then put back on will have a different amount of runout than if it had before?

You can check for run out by rotating the blade and tightening it at 6, 9, 12 and 3 o'clock positions on the arbor. Secure the arbor by strapping the belt down or on a direct drive just make a visible white mark on the arbor backing washer and watch for it in those locations after you tighten up the blade. Likewise, place a small whiteout mark on a tooth to locate the position of the blade as well.


If the arbor has runout, there's not a whole lot you can do other than stone the backing washer's face while the saw is running. You Tube has videos which demonstrate how it's done. If the blade has runout, a sharpening service can flatten it OR you can just live with it. Find the position on the arbor where it is the least and just use it in that position when making blade changes.





The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-06-2020 at 08:36 PM.
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post #36 of 47 Old 09-07-2020, 09:30 AM
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if you have (what one perceives to be..) excessive run out - loosen the arbor nut, keep shaft/arbor stationary, rotate blade 90 degrees, re-tighten arbor nut and recheck run-out. repeat as needed - although the 4th 'peat gets you back to where you started....


my theory: super small variations in thicknesses - especially if the arbor area has be decorated/painted/printed/coated - can translate to noticeable run-out at the saw teeth radius..... rotating the blade simply finds the least disruptive position. I've "replicated" the issue and the solution on multiple blades over multiple times - (same table saw) - so there seems to be something to it.
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post #37 of 47 Old 09-07-2020, 10:10 AM
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That makes sense. Every blade has some amount of runout, and if there is slight runout in the arbor, then rotating the blade on the arbor may find the point where one tends to cancel the other.

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post #38 of 47 Old 09-07-2020, 10:43 AM
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"If the arbor has runout, there's not a whole lot you can do other than stone the backing washer's face while the saw is running. You Tube has videos which demonstrate how it's done."

I watched the video. I think the author was premature in attributing the runout to the shape of the arbor (the flange not being square to the arbor's axis) rather than the motion of the arbor (the axis of the arbor is not aligned with the axis of rotation, so the plane of the flange is not square to the axis of rotation). I've found the later condition more common.

If one of the bearings is not pressed onto the arbor square or if a bearing is worn unevenly, the center of rotation at that point is thrown off. The arbor will appear to wobble or flutter as it spins. Long spindles act as if they are bent, which would be a problem you can't do anything about. I've never seen a bent spindle, but I've corrected spindles people thought were bent by resetting the bearings.

Grinding a flange to true it will certainly work, but it is more likely that it addresses the symptoms of the problem rather than the root cause.
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post #39 of 47 Old 09-07-2020, 11:53 AM
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Unlikely in my opinion ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGi View Post
"If the arbor has runout, there's not a whole lot you can do other than stone the backing washer's face while the saw is running. You Tube has videos which demonstrate how it's done."

I watched the video. I think the author was premature in attributing the runout to the shape of the arbor (the flange not being square to the arbor's axis) rather than the motion of the arbor (the axis of the arbor is not aligned with the axis of rotation, so the plane of the flange is not square to the axis of rotation).
I've found the later condition more common.

If one of the bearings is not pressed onto the arbor square or if a bearing is worn unevenly, the center of rotation at that point is thrown off. The arbor will appear to wobble or flutter as it spins. Long spindles act as if they are bent, which would be a problem you can't do anything about. I've never seen a bent spindle, but I've corrected spindles people thought were bent by resetting the bearings.

Grinding a flange to true it will certainly work, but it is more likely that it addresses the symptoms of the problem rather than the root cause.

The arbor and flange are machined in a single lathe operation. It is highly unlikely the flange is NOT perpendicular to the center of rotation of the arbor. However, it may have some minor runout like 0.005" like in the video. If there is any doubt, this process is easy enough to accomplish and may be worthwhile regardless.

If the arbor is not at 90 degrees to the miter slots, this is an adjustable condition which I have done several times with different types of table saws. I speak with "limited" machining experience having only a 13" and a 9" South Bend metal lathes.

A wobbly arbor due to a worn or misaligned bearing would express itself instantly. A grossly out of true flange would be exhibited by a wobbly blade, also instantly visible. How a 5/8" arbor would get bent is beyond me.


A different flange, not arbor truing video:

The answer to your question will only be as detailed and specific as the question is detailed and specific. Good questions also include a sketch or a photo that illustrates your issue. (:< D)

Last edited by woodnthings; 09-07-2020 at 02:25 PM.
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post #40 of 47 Old 09-07-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks, you explain this tool much better than the manufacturer does.

In the images, I saw a stop bolt in the rails as a limiter for mounting the big cross bar between the rails. How close to the end can that be set?

That 12 1/2" figure you mentioned is a little unclear to me as to measured from-where-to-where. If I cut the rails to 62 1/4" (to allow about 1" space on each side when "parking" the saw in its wall space) mounting them flush with the left side of my saw table, the right ends of the rails would be 42" from the blade. Taking into account the stop bolt on the rail, the wide cross bar and "guide box" which locks the positioner bar, how wide a cut can I get to the right of the blade?
Sorry for the delay in answering your questions. I thought it would be more helpful to post a video for you rather than trying to answer them in a post. The video below goes through a few items that I think should answer your questions. If not let me know and I'll do my best to get you the answers you're looking for.

The measurements I mention in the video are always from the blade. So when you're trying to figure out whether this will work for your saw or not you'll have to take that into account. If I understand your question correctly if you have 42" of space from the blade to the right ends of the rails you'll probably be able to get around a 29" cut. My base is mounted exactly 42" from the blade and I get just under 30 1/2" cut. Since the locking bolts are about 1.5" long you won't quite be able to use that entire 42".

One other note...in the first part of the video I show the measurement from the blade to the end of the positioner. I say it's 43 1/4" from the blade to the farthest point of the positioner. I misspoke...it's actually 43 3/4" to that bold that sticks out of the end of the positioner.

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