Seeking Opinions: Corner Sink Cutout and Butt-Joint on Butcher Block - Woodworking Talk - Woodworkers Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 09-30-2018, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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Seeking Opinions: Corner Sink Cutout and Butt-Joint on Butcher Block

Dear Carpenters and Wood-Working Folk More Skilled Than I:

The title says most of it: I'm currently installing a full kitchen of butcher block counters, with butt joints, as recommended to me by a very close carpenter pal who suggested it for ease. My friend was aware of our intention to throw in a corner sink, but now I'm thinking a corner sink and butt joint aren't really the greatest combo and this was an oversight.
The image attached is a rough mock-up of what I'd like to achieve....but I'm starting to think a miter joint would have provided more stability for this type of undertaking.

I plan to cut out a small triangle piece to fill in the gap of the front angle for the sink, subsequently filling out the area in front of the sink. The link below contains an example of a similar corner sink (and angle fill-in piece), however, with a miter joint.

https://www.oldtownhome.com/2012/9/1...ters-are-Done/

I'm absolutely willing to utilize a smaller sink, in order to create more space on the back left exposed area of the joint, in order to sneak in some kind of better connection, but my question to you all is: is this a crazy attempt destined to fail? Is there any feasible chance of both creating a decent joint here, while also adding a corner sink? I'm open to suggestions and would like to make it work. Or should I simply use this piece elsewhere and miter the corner instead?

I've been told already that due to the breadboard ends cross-graining, a biscuit/glue is out of the question, and for seasonal expansion the only real option would be to throw ONE pin in the joint and live with movement wherever said pin does not go. Also potential for domino or blind spine. -- Is this my only option? Am I trying to make something impossible work here?
Any help would be greatly appreciated and I apologize about the lengthy post.
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post #2 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 08:36 AM
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If you are intent on doing a corner sink, then the way you are doing it is wrong, and will look terrible, IMO.

You need to have a section of top that the grain runs diagonal like the corner cabinet, then cut each side(or end) at an angle that will meet your straight runs. You will need a filler at the back for the extra width, but it will at least have the grain running the same direction.

You are still likely to have a little mismatch of the grain where the straight runs meet the corner section, you could play with the angle a little bit and dial it in where it isn't too much.

For the few kitchens I did where they insisted on a corner sink, after the fact they wish they hadn't.

The one where it did work OK had a diagonal wall in the kitchen.
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post #3 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 06:00 PM
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For me the sink in the corner isn't as much a problem as the joint. I think the corner should be mitered.
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post #4 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
For me the sink in the corner isn't as much a problem as the joint. I think the corner should be mitered.
Problem is he has a corner sink cabinet, so even if he miters it, there is a space to fill where the top doesn't fully cover the cabinet below(see his pic).

Beyond that you now have the sink sitting on top of a joint, not ideal for a water source to be on top of a seam.

Last edited by shoot summ; 10-01-2018 at 07:02 PM.
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post #5 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoot summ View Post
Problem is he has a corner sink cabinet, so even if he miters it, there is a space to fill where the top doesn't fully cover the cabinet below(see his pic).

Beyond that you now have the sink sitting on top of a joint, not ideal for a water source to be on top of a seam.
It's not uncommon to have a seam where there is a sink. As long as there is due diligence installing and sealing the sink rim there shouldn't be a problem.
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post #6 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Neul View Post
It's not uncommon to have a seam where there is a sink. As long as there is due diligence installing and sealing the sink rim there shouldn't be a problem.
I hear what you are saying, it's not the edge of the sink that is the issue, it's the water that spills over on to the counter top and seeps into the seam.
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post #7 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoot summ View Post
I hear what you are saying, it's not the edge of the sink that is the issue, it's the water that spills over on to the counter top and seeps into the seam.
In a situation like that you have to plan for it. The seems need to be well fitted and seal it with some waterproof glue.
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post #8 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 10:15 PM
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Corner sink

I would have made the counter in 3 pieces instead of 2.
I would have started in the corner and fit the piece for the sink first. Then as Shoot Sum said above, I would fit the other two pieces to the corner piece.
I like the top corner piece to run parallel to the faceframe in the corner.
The other two top side pieces will also run parallel to the side faceframes.
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post #9 of 19 Old 10-01-2018, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies everyone. My thoughts are to use a new piece of Butcher Block and go with the miter joint. I've gathered the below reccomendation and thought I'd replant it here to see what you all think of this route:

"First, be sure to make the cuts dead on. I made rough cuts & then used a router with a pattern bit to finish the cut perfectly flat & straight. Because it's not long grain to long grain, the joint is going to need more than just glue. Dominoes would be great here, but a double row if biscuits (what I used) will be very strong as well. to pull the joint together, countertop bolts work well & aren't expensive. Epoxy is a good choice here.

I've done 3 wooden countertops with undermount sinks & on all I sealed the underside around the sink & the edges of the cutout with clear epoxy (West Systems). A heat gun helps the epoxy to penetrate the wood. The sink is then secured from below with epoxy & screws. All the cutouts still look like new 1, 3, & 4 years later. No issues with the water at all. 2 of the sinks were finished with oil & the other with wipe-on poly. No matter what the finish is, extra care to wipe spills right away must be taken with wood counters"
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post #10 of 19 Old 10-02-2018, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkearns10 View Post
Thanks for the replies everyone. My thoughts are to use a new piece of Butcher Block and go with the miter joint. I've gathered the below reccomendation and thought I'd replant it here to see what you all think of this route:

"First, be sure to make the cuts dead on. I made rough cuts & then used a router with a pattern bit to finish the cut perfectly flat & straight. Because it's not long grain to long grain, the joint is going to need more than just glue. Dominoes would be great here, but a double row if biscuits (what I used) will be very strong as well. to pull the joint together, countertop bolts work well & aren't expensive. Epoxy is a good choice here.

I've done 3 wooden countertops with undermount sinks & on all I sealed the underside around the sink & the edges of the cutout with clear epoxy (West Systems). A heat gun helps the epoxy to penetrate the wood. The sink is then secured from below with epoxy & screws. All the cutouts still look like new 1, 3, & 4 years later. No issues with the water at all. 2 of the sinks were finished with oil & the other with wipe-on poly. No matter what the finish is, extra care to wipe spills right away must be taken with wood counters"
Sounds like a plan to me.
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post #11 of 19 Old 10-02-2018, 08:46 AM
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Sounds like your mind is made up, good luck to you.

How are you going to address the "triangle" and do you see an obvious issue that you will have?
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post #12 of 19 Old 10-02-2018, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shoot summ View Post
Sounds like your mind is made up, good luck to you.

How are you going to address the "triangle" and do you see an obvious issue that you will have?

No sir, I'm just gathering intel and trying to make a calculated decision is all..based on those more wise with carpentry matters than I.

Re: The Triangle...I spoke to the fella who pulled off the miter corner sink as seen in the previously posted link. He said it's holding up great after 6 years or so, with attention to water and cleanliness of course. Aside from the sink sitting over a joint and being non-ideal, what do you think?
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post #13 of 19 Old 10-02-2018, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rkearns10 View Post
No sir, I'm just gathering intel and trying to make a calculated decision is all..based on those more wise with carpentry matters than I.

Re: The Triangle...I spoke to the fella who pulled off the miter corner sink as seen in the previously posted link. He said it's holding up great after 6 years or so, with attention to water and cleanliness of course. Aside from the sink sitting over a joint and being non-ideal, what do you think?
I'll just qualify all of what I am going to say by establishing, I hate work that looks like the homeowner did it. It is either pro quality in appearance, or don't do it.

The only way to do that install, and have it look right, is the way I have already stated. Anything else will look like a hack job IMO.

The issue with the triangle, above and beyond looking like an after thought, is that the butcher block will have the top edge just slightly eased. Notice it is not sharp? Now you are going to try to stick a piece that you have cut on there, it will have a slight gap on the surface because that edge has been eased. Sure epoxy will likely fill it, still going to look bad IMO.

I like the idea of using epoxy for the joint, the West system although pricey, is great stuff, I use it a lot, make sure you get the pumps, so easy to mix that way.

Biscuits will do absolutely nothing for you from a strength perspective, at best they will help align but even then not so much. They depend on the moisture in the wood glue to expand, very unlikely epoxy will have the same effect.

Counter top bolts are mandatory for any joint IMO.

So you are caught between will it work, and will it look right. You have to decide as you are going to live with it. I couldn't live with it the way you are describing. But then for me I wouldn't consider butcher block tops at all, but that is another discussion.
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post #14 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoot summ View Post
I'll just qualify all of what I am going to say by establishing, I hate work that looks like the homeowner did it. It is either pro quality in appearance, or don't do it.

The only way to do that install, and have it look right, is the way I have already stated. Anything else will look like a hack job IMO.

The issue with the triangle, above and beyond looking like an after thought, is that the butcher block will have the top edge just slightly eased. Notice it is not sharp? Now you are going to try to stick a piece that you have cut on there, it will have a slight gap on the surface because that edge has been eased. Sure epoxy will likely fill it, still going to look bad IMO.

I like the idea of using epoxy for the joint, the West system although pricey, is great stuff, I use it a lot, make sure you get the pumps, so easy to mix that way.

Biscuits will do absolutely nothing for you from a strength perspective, at best they will help align but even then not so much. They depend on the moisture in the wood glue to expand, very unlikely epoxy will have the same effect.

Counter top bolts are mandatory for any joint IMO.

So you are caught between will it work, and will it look right. You have to decide as you are going to live with it. I couldn't live with it the way you are describing. But then for me I wouldn't consider butcher block tops at all, but that is another discussion.
Fair enough man. Ultimately this is for my own home, which is a bit old, that I inherited... so I'm learning and flexible. It's not particularly a matter of supreme craftsmanship, per se. But I agree, that should always be the goal.

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you said the only to do it right was as you stated? I'm sort of confused as to what the difference would be, but hoping to learn and clarify in the process. Thanks!
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post #15 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toolman50 View Post
I would have made the counter in 3 pieces instead of 2.
I would have started in the corner and fit the piece for the sink first. Then as Shoot Sum said above, I would fit the other two pieces to the corner piece.
I like the top corner piece to run parallel to the faceframe in the corner.
The other two top side pieces will also run parallel to the side faceframes.
Hearing what you're saying here, IE make a corner slab that would fit the entire sink and have no miter joint, then connect the runs at each end to the corner piece. Just curious how the front face angle of the cabinet would get covered only working with 25" of depth?
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post #16 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 04:26 PM Thread Starter
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I see what you mean. Something similar to this:

http://theredfeedsack.blogspot.com/2...nter-tops.html
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post #17 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rkearns10 View Post
I see what you mean. Something similar to this:

http://theredfeedsack.blogspot.com/2...nter-tops.html
That is it!!

See how good that looks?
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post #18 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkearns10 View Post
Hearing what you're saying here, IE make a corner slab that would fit the entire sink and have no miter joint, then connect the runs at each end to the corner piece. Just curious how the front face angle of the cabinet would get covered only working with 25" of depth?
You will have to add some width to that corner slab, or build a corner ledge with a shelf to take up the space.
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post #19 of 19 Old 10-03-2018, 10:37 PM
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